So?

That doesn't give Christians a green light to go around judging others relationship with God.

I really don't give a damn what the book claims that Jesus may have said. As I've stated many times I firmly believe that the entire New Testament is nothing more than hearsay rumors that use Jesus as a patsy to push their agenda.

The bottom line here is not intended to be an argument about whether people will be judged in some way by something other than Jesus.

That's a totally moot point.

The bottom line is that Jesus himself said that he will not judge those who do not believe in him. And therefore Christians who merely claim to believe in Jesus are the greatest of all hypocrites to try to use the Bible and the words of Jesus to pass judgment on others.

As I have often stated that I personally believe that Jesus was a Buddhist, and that much of what he said was either innocently misunderstood and mistranslated by the authors of the New Testament, or blatantly and knowingly manipulated on purpose to suit the goals and agenda of the authors of the New Testament.

I personally believe that the New Testament is actually an attempt by the Scribes and Pharisees to use the rumors of Jesus to regain their religious authority. And to be perfectly honest about I think they succeeded in doing this, and the result of their success is what we now call "Christianity".

The bottom line for anyone who truly wants to believe in an all-righteous and all-wise God is to truly do JUST THAT!

I obviously TRUST the creator of this universe far more than you do. I TRUST the creator to truly be wise and just, far beyond the pettiness that is pushed in the New Testament in the name of Christianity.

In fact, if God is truly that petty I would not only be disappointed in God, but I would feel sorely sorry for him. He would indeed be quite pathetic, IMHO.

Moreover, if you take John 12:48 in the context of Buddhism and recognize that Jesus was simply teaching the 12 laws of Karma, then it makes perfect sense that he would say precisely what he said. Your karma will indeed determine your future and no judgment will even be required because the judge is the word and the word is karma.

There is nothing disrespectful toward Jesus to believe that he was a mortal man. I seriously doubt that Jesus ever claimed to be the only begotten son of the God of the Old Testament anyway. You may find verses in the NT that claim he said that, but personally I don't believe them. As far as I'm concerned they are hearsay rumors that represent ether gross misunderstanding, or outright lies.

There is no way that anyone is going to convince me that a supposedly all-wise God would send someone to Earth in human form to offer mankind a New Covenant, and then leave that communication up to second-hand rumors. That's all the proof I need right there that this message didn't come from any all-wise God, because an all-wise God would know better, IMHO.

There would be no reason at all not to have Jesus write up his own doctrines. If an all-powerful, all-wise God could not arrange that, then all I can say is that it's neither all-powerful, nor all-wise.

The scenario that Jesus was a misunderstood Buddhist makes far more sense, and is a totally respectable hypothesis.

There is absolutely nothing disrespectful about this hypothesis.

I'm sure that an all-wise God would see the wisdom in my words.

The fact that mortal Christians cannot comprehend these things is truly moot.

No there's no difference at all. Your stance is equally opinionated.

Here you are once again trying to pull a 'trump card' in some way.

No, to believe in the biblical mythology has not more merit than to reject it. In fact some people reject it entirely suggesting that it was entirely made up and that there wasn't even any "Jesus" at all.

I at least offer a workable hypothesis where Jesus could have actually been a Buddhist who was misunderstood. Or possibly he was understood, but the authors of the New Testament recognize that they could use this "Christ" thing to try to make him into the "son of God".

Any scenario a person wants to put onto these ancient stories is an equally valid scenario, no opinions trump any others.

You can attempt to condemn me by using a bigoted version of these tales. But that doesn't give your condemnation any merit. I only reveals your lust to use your religious beliefs to condemn others who do not believe like you.

In fact, this is precisely the kind of mentality that this religion creates that many atheists see as being extremely dangerous.

It was precisely the kind of mentality that you are pushing that fed the fires of things like the crusades and the witch hunts. PUSH it all in the name of JESUS AS LORD!

Because non-believers are clearly CHOOSING to be HEATHENS!

Condemn them all with no mercy just as our Holy Book says to do!

I think we truly need to get past that kind of mentality.

Oh but that's where you're wrong lol. I'm not condemning anyone. I'm not taking a stance of being greater then you, nothing of any such. We're merely having a discussion, why take it so personal to feel i'm condemning you?

No he will not judge those whom do not believe in him, for their judgement is already made. Judgement is to see if you are deserving of the paradise of heaven. If one does not accept Jesus then their is no need for a "judgement" for their is one judgement for that single action already. So the other actions you may have taken in your life is moot, irrelevant.

I fully understand what the authors of the New Testament were trying to do. They were basically trying to convince their readers that to reject their conclusions and hearsay rumors would result in being condemned by God.

That's utterly stupid, IMHO.

You bought into their scam, and I didn't.

Now you are trying to use their scam to pass judgment on others using their rhetoric.

Again, this is what makes Christianity such a dangerous religion.

Well, there you go right there.

Just believe that and all will be well.

I have absolutely no doubt whatsoever that I am deserving of paradise so if that's what judgment is all about then what a person believes can have nothing to do with it.

again i'm not passing judgement on anyone. I'm just a sinful as you or the next guy, i'm no better. Why do you see this as passing judgement on you? Did I say *YOU* were gonna burn in hell for not accepting Jesus and or anything along those lines? No I did not, I merely stated generally what is said on it. You are not dead so therefore there is always time and thus you are not :condemned"

I'm not yet dead so I have time yet?

Time for what? To accept the idea that the NT is true and Jesus was the son of the God of Abraham?

I'm never going to do that. That has nothing to do with anything important.

Evidently you are passing judgment on me. You are passing judgment that I'm not in harmony with God and that I yet need to get in harmony with God. Therefore when I speak of my relationship with God through religious traditions such as Wicca or Buddhism, you would not give any of that one iota of respect as being sincere spirituality. In other words, you would be judging me to be an insincere person with respect to God.

You are basically judging everyone who has not accepted Jesus to be the Son of God (an ALL that goes with that), to be rejecting God, at least for the time being. Even if they may still have *time* to change their mind.

That's just ignorant, IMHO.

You're basically judging other people's relationship with their creator based on what YOU CHOSE to believe. And based on how YOU CHOSE to interpret scriptures. You are using those scriptures to pass judgments on everyone who has not yet acknowledge Jesus as God (and ALL that goes with that)

And let's talk about "ALL that goes with that".

In order for me to believe that Jesus was the "Christ" predicted by the OT, then I must also believe that the entire OT is the "Word of God".

So you're not just asking me to believe that Jesus is God, you're basically demanding that I believe the entire Biblical cannon.

You're asking me to believe in the story of Adam and Eve and that mankind is in the doghouse with God and that we are all in dire need of repentance. You're asking me to believe in Satan and evil demons. You're asking me to believe in angels. And so on and so forth.

I reject the OT entirely as mere mythology.

Therefore there can be no question in my mind that Jesus could not be the son of that God who was sent to offer us a chance for repentance and salvation against those claims.

Therefore, I look to other possible explanations. I found, what I consider to be a very good explanation in the idea that Jesus was a Mahayana Buddhist Bodhisattva who was either grossly misunderstood, or actually lied about in the NT in an effort to use the rumors of his crucifixion to support the very dogma that Jesus himself renounced.

To me that's a very solid and meaningful explanation of the whole thing.

I really don't need to go through the rest of my life having Christians 'condemning' (not to eternal damnation as it's not their place to do that), but condemning my relationship with a divine source simply because I prefer to think of God in a far better light through other spiritual philosophies, such as Buddhism, or Wicca, or whatever.

I have a very abstract mind, and I trust that God's mind is ever far more abstract. So I have no problem at all reaching into the depths of my imagination because I'm sure the mind of God is far beyond anything I can imagine in my wildest dreams.

I see a God in which I am best friends with. I'm not in the "doghouse of sin" in dire need of repentance. That's just utterly foolish. I don't view our creator as my adversary. I see no reason to. And I also don't view our creator as someone who would be appeased by blood sacrifices or anything else as crude as has been written in the Hebrew folklore and history.

In short, I see no reason to create and adversarial relationship with God just so I can fall to my knees and beg for repentance.

I prefer a far more wholesome relationship with my creator.

From my point of view you're attempting to push a dogma onto me that would just take everything I see in God and make it filthy.

Why would I want to do that?

I prefer to think of God as being divine. Not my adversary.

So the religion that you keep shoving in my face. and telling me that I need to believe, honestly makes me sick to my stomach.

I just see no need to belittle God, or my relationship with God, in that way.

For me, Jesus is far more respectable as a Mahayana Buddhist.

It's hardly "bogus".
These are your words which are in themselves bogus on two counts, one which is quite apparent, the other which will be addressed below.

"Such people are certainly on their own when they do this and clearly have no support from Jesus according to the gospel of John."

So you make the judgement that "such people" have no support of Jesus. And since you equate Jesus to being God below, you do judge people's relationship with Him. (bogus count #1)






That entire "agument" was a very weak one using a strawman fallacy.
Nowhere does it say Jesus is God, especially in the text that you quoted, so it is you who is jumping to conclusions... (bogus count #2)

Beside that, who ever said the Bible wasn't written by men? Two strawmen at once...

So I leave everyone with your words, but I'll use them to describe your writings...
"These are the writings of men who are trying to force the tongues of other men to 'confess' things which they cannot possibly know to be true...."

...Now that, my friend, is a TRUE confession!

LoL, nice try but no still no grounds for passing judgement. I never once said you were not in harmony with God, never once said you had no relationship with God, never once said you were not going to heaven, never said you were going to heaven, never said ANYTHING about YOUR eternity.

So try again shall we?

Also keep this in mind, this isn't specifically about YOU in our discussions. Things I say is in a general form to anyone and everyone. So when and if I were to say the only way to God is through Jesus, that is not directly specifically to YOU. Do you forget we're on a public forum where other people read these not just including the people posting? That is why I say what I say, again it's not directed at YOU, just saying it in generality for everyone and anyone to learn if they wish.



I'm pushing nothing on anyone. Again, we're in a "GENERAL RELIGION CHAT". People come here to DISCUSS their religious beliefs. Nothing being pushed on anyone. And i'm not shoving anything in anyone's face either, nor did I ever say YOU NEED TO BELIEVE in what I say, that's up to your digression. And how does Christianity show God as being filthy? Just because people some people won't make it to heaven? What's filthy bout that? Would you prefer to spend eternity with mass murderers, thieves, rapists, ect? Or would you prefer to spend eternity with people of a good heart, people that actually care about you, people to share great times with?

If you want to believe that bible doesn't claim that Jesus is God that's fine with me.

I was speaking to the Christians who are attempting to claim otherwise.

That is incorrect!

You were "speaking" to my post, specifically the words which you quoted.
You made the claim, not me nor my qouted verses.

I don't take any of this personally Cowboy. That's your misconception. What I'm stating is that this religion causes "Christians" in general to judge non-Christians in general.

So it's nothing personal. It's just part and parcel of the topic.

And YES I am in total agreement with you that the New Testament Gospels do indeed make the claims that you suggest. Unlike many "Designer Christians" you actually seem to have the gospels down pat.

What you seem to be failing to understand is my position. I'm rejecting the gospels as being a valid verbatim account of what Jesus actually taught. I'm saying that these second-had rumors are either a gross misrepresentation of what Jesus might have actually taught, or they are outright lies in an attempt to use the already popular rumors of Jesus to back up their original dogma. The very dogma that Jesus clearly did not even agree with.

So I wouldn't even begin to try to argue with you that the New Testament doesn't make the claims that you suggest. I'm sure it does!

I'm rejecting it as being a valid representation of that any man named Jesus might have actually taught.

And one of my major reasons for my "belief" is because I don't believe that any genuinely all-wise God would have ever sent his son to deliver a "New Covenant" with mankind and then have that message become contaminated by nothing more than hearsay gossip.

To me, that's a dead give-away that something highly suspicious is going down.

I don't believe that any all-wise God would behave as the Old Testament depicts either. So I have no reason to even remotely believe that Jesus would have been the son of any such God.

What I'm trying to tell you is that by believing in these old fables, you are projecting yourself as judging others BASED on these fables.

In other words, if I don't believe in the same fables that you believe in, then I must be rejecting God because that's what YOUR FABLES claim.

So it's the very fables that you have chosen to believe in that are the source of your religious bigotry.

Nothing personal. This would be true of anyone who believes in these fables and actually understands what they are saying.

In other words, "Designer Christians" don't count, because they don't truly understand what the gospels are even demanding.

At least you see precisely what they are indeed demanding.

I don't argue on that point. My position is that the gospels themselves are nonsense. In other words, I don't believe that they are the "Word" of any God. And I don't believe that Jesus was "God". At least not in the Old Testament sense.

If Jesus was "god" he was "god" in the same way that Buddha was "god" and that we are all "god".

In other words, Jesus may very well have been a pantheist and even a Buddha in his own right. That I WILL accept.

How else would he have done it? Come down and re-inform us of his laws every generation? For if he didn't people could make claims such as you with the hearsay rumours.

Now you're just assuming, and we all know what happens when you assume. No i'm not projecting myself as judging anyone. If one does not wish to believe in the father, then so be it. That is their decision. I know not of what will come of them after this life nor I presume to know. All I relay is what our father has said about it, bottom line. Nothing more, nothing less. I judge no one. As Jesus said we will be judged by the word, i'm merely spreading that word. I'm judging no one personally.

Well, the verses you quoted, John 12:42-43, sure appear to me to be suggesting that Jesus is God. Otherwise why would the Pharisees be expected to confess him as such?

John was the ones who was suggesting that Jesus is God, not me!

Yet you seem to be holding out the notion that "Nowhere does it say that Jesus is God". It may not say it outright, but it sure as heck seems to be implying it all over the place.

What were the Pharisees supposed to "confess" about Jesus?

They were to confess Jesus is Lord.

No way in anyway does this claim Jesus is God. Jesus is the path to God, he is the way. No one comes to the father but through Jesus. We praise God through our following of what Jesus taught us. All this verse is talking about is people putting other people over God, more important. They worry more about what other people will think of them rather then what our father thinks of them, thus putting the people being more important then our father.
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John 12:42-43

42Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

43For they loved the praise of men more than the praise of God.

You say, "If one does not wish to believe in the father, then so be it. That is their decision."

That's a judgment right there Cowboy.

Well, that's a rather absurd thing to expect them to be confessing since they most likely had absolutely no reason to believe such a far-fetched claim.