What would be the point to an eternal life in heaven?

Besides, I never said that reincarnation would last forever. On the contrary I said that every child would eventually graduate.

So it could end the same way that you propose life ends, in some sort of heaven.

The only difference is that ALL THE CHILDREN OF GOD would graduate. It would be 100% efficient and thus PERFECT.

Anything less, would be inferior and thus imperfect.

So for the Christian scenario to be true, God would need to be an imperfect creator/designer. Whereas, if Eastern Mysticism is true, God could potentially be perfect.

So the real question is why do you choose to believe in a religion that has an imperfect restricted God, over a religion that has a perfect unrestricted God?

The premise is that we're speaking about an unlimited God. I realize that you are so used to worshiping a totally inept God that you are having trouble with this. But just try to imagine a God for whom anything is possible.

Dictionary definitions created by humans aren't going to be an obstacle for this God.

They aren't even an obstacle for Eastern Mystics. Eastern mystics have considered to concept of infinitely many 'universes' even before modern science knew what a universe was.

If the ancient Eastern mystics can comprehend this, you can be sure an all-powerful God isn't going to have a problem with it.

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What would be the point to an eternal life in heaven?
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To live in paradise void of anything foul. And most importantly to have the ability and chance to praise our father and love him for eternity.
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Besides, I never said that reincarnation would last forever. On the contrary I said that every child would eventually graduate.

So it could end the same way that you propose life ends, in some sort of heaven.
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so it "could" end up the....

Could reveals no knowledge of this and only personal perspective and wishes. And one life time is enough to grow and learn. Even if it's on the death bed when someone finally accepts Jesus as lord and saviour he will be saved if he truly and sincerely trusts in our lord with all his heart.

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The premise is that we're speaking about an unlimited God. I realize that you are so used to worshiping a totally inept God that you are having trouble with this. But just try to imagine a God for whom anything is possible.


Dictionary definitions created by humans aren't going to be an obstacle for this God.
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Sure it would be. If you went to another country and wished to speak with them efficiently you would talk in their language that they could understand. You wouldn't use words with your own definition, you would use their definition so that they could understand sufficiently.

That would be the wise thing to do any ways, so that there be not any miscommunication or misunderstandings.

Knowledge is irrelevant. An ancient convoluted gossip column doesn't represent knowledge either.

The only point to consider is why anyone would want to believe in a creation myth that has a limited inferior God, over a spiritual philosophy that exhibits perfection?

I mean, since they are all just a matter of FAITH, why not place your FAITH in the one that has the greatest promise?

Why place your faith in an religious mythology that has an inferior God that loses the vast majority of souls it creates?

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The only point to consider is why anyone would want to believe in a creation myth that has a limited inferior God, over a spiritual philosophy that exhibits perfection?
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Our father is not limited nor inferior to anything or anyone.
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Why place your faith in an religious mythology that has an inferior God that loses the vast majority of souls it creates?
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Our father looses nothing, for he has nothing to loose or gain from us receiving the gift or not receiving as such. That is us who gain or loose. It is our choice in the long run. Us going to heaven does not make our father greater, more powerful, or gain him anything it is ALL for US.

I have absolutely no clue what you're even talking about. Just because you found an extremely narrow-minded definition for the word "reincarnation" doesn't mean a thing.

Besides, you are just now FINALLY making confessing to a point I made several weeks ago!

In the Bible the gospels have Jesus saying:


Matt.24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark.13:30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke.21:32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.



I argued that these scriptures have Jesus stating to people LIVE via word of mouth that everything he taught and predicted would come to pass before the current generation had passed.

You argued that Jesus was using the term "generation" to me the entire span of all human existence. Buy why?

If humans use the term generation to mean a single human lifespan at the most, then why would God CONFUSE everyone by using the word "generation" to mean the entire span of all human existence?

So if I'm going to accept your semantic whining that God can't abuse the term "reincarnation" because you found a dictionary definition that limits reincarnation to just planet Earth, then you'd have to confess that God would also not use the term "generation" to mean anything other than what humans normally use it to mean.

So based on your very same objections, then your Jesus clearly was not speaking about anything beyond the generation in which he lived and thus to expect him to come back today, or anytime would be utterly foolish. He clearly didn't all he was going to do within the current generation in which he lived.

You aways pull these kinds of stunts. You use an argument one way when it's in YOUR FAVOR, and then turn it right around on its head and try to use it precisely the opposite way when you'd like to try to make some other argument.

You're Bible is already corrupt in the way it uses WORDS!

So to argue semantics in this reincarnation scenario is utterly futile and useless.

Besides, you're totally evading the point. If a God can do anything a stupid dictionary definition of a word isn't going to stop him. Unless perhaps HE'S the one who supposed USED the WORD.

In the case of Jesus, we have THREE authors all in agreement that Jesus said that everything he spoke of would come to pass within the current generation in which he lived.

Therefore, if you are waiting for Jesus to come back to day, you simply didn't pay attention to what he said.

You are in grave denial,

You're the one who keeps calling the Biblical God, "Our Father" and referring to us as "His Children".

If that's the case then every soul lost is God LOSING a CHILD!

How can you say that God never loses?

If you are a father and you lost your children would you consider it to be no big deal?

Your arguments and analogies make absolutely no sense at all.

To buy into your belief system we can't think of God as a loving caring father, but instead we'd need to acknowledge him as a totally heartless and uncaring irresponsible parent, who's parenting skills would be totally inept.

I guess you don't expect too many to acturally make it to the heaven stage.

For some 100,000 years humans have been populating the Earth. I have no idea when the supposed final judgment will occur but at the moment the current population has been expaninding at an exponential rate.


You think we are becoming overpopulated now? - consider adding even a fraction of all the humans who have existed in over 100,000 years.

That is your heaven on earth - exactly how is THAT going to work?

Standing room only, strong people on the botton, lighter people on their shoulders. Good thing it's heaven, no need for food, water, or sex. Oh wait - It's beginning to sound more more like -

whew, I got scared there for a minute, then I remembered I'm an athiest - all better now.

Ok - no joking this time. Serious questions - because I havn't thought much about it this way.


What is it that God actually creates? Physical bodies or spiritual manefistations of the body(souls)?

That's a very good point Di,

However, the Bible does say that very few will actually make it to heaven, so heaven may not be all that populated in the end.

Just look at the story of the Great Flood. There must have been thousands or tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of people on the Earth at that time. But only a very small group of no more than about a dozen people were 'saved'.

If that's any indication of this God success rate at creating 'good souls' then heaven won't have many people in it. Moreover, Noah and his family weren't even considered to be sin free, God supposedly only favored them via grace. Of course this flies in the face of all sin being on equal footing because if Noah and his family were sinners, but not really bad sinners, then sin must be graded and all sin cannot be on equal footing.

There are just so many contradictions in this religious paradigm. And Cowboy is trying to claim:



If that's true, then why are the Abrahamic fables so confusing and ambiguous that so many different religious views grew from it?

When you say that God would speak to us to where we would be able to understand you're truly giving us all the more reason to reject the Biblical account of God because it's crystal clear that no two people can agree on what it says.



You found one definition in a single dictionary. That doesn't constitute a definition for what humans in general hold for this concept at all. On the contrary the Eastern Mystics have held that there are infinitely many "universes" in which we can be reincarnated into. Just because you found a very shallow definition in one dictionary doesn't represent how all of humanity views this concept.

Besides, like I say, if you want to demand that an all-wise all-powerful God should be able to communicate with us clearly then this is more than sufficient reason to reject the Bible as the "Word of God". This is certainly one of my reasons for rejecting it. These tales simply are far too ambiguous and open to personal interpretation to be from any all-wise God. That a major strike against the Bible. It simply isn't clear, and all the many sects and denominations from Catholicism to the Amish Protestants clearly shows that humans do not all see the same things when they read these story.

Plus you need to take into account the atheists (or even spiritualists like me) who have read the Bible and dismiss it as nothing more than the hearsay superstitious rumors of a sick society. This is also a case where people who read these texts do not see anything sensible enough to latch onto. For them it's all just gossip gobbledygook. That can't be from any all-wise creator.

So you're just confirming what the atheists already know.

Well that depends on which spiritual philosophy you're directing the question to.

The Abrahamic Religions

In the case of the Middle Eastern types of creation myths like Zeus and the God of Abraham, God supposedly creates souls, but a body is obviously required for this process too. The soul is "created", or comes into being for the first time, with the birth of a physical body.

Depending on how that soul behaves will determine it's fate when the body dies. It's it's naughty it will be terminated (possibly after some potential suffering to pay for it's naughty behavior, even before it is wiped out). If it's 'nice' AND obedient, it will then be granted an eternal existence in some spiritual form that requires no physical body (although even that is in question because many people believe that Heaven will be on Earth and physical bodies will indeed be used in Heaven). They will just be perfect and immortal I guess.

Of course, according to many people you can even be 'nice' and still be terminated if you didn't believe a certain way. In fact, it's highly questionable of what 'nice' even means. Everyone seems to have a different opinion on that one.

Eastern Mysticism

In the Eastern Mystic view God does not "create" life, instead God is life. All 'souls' belong to God. All 'souls' are a facet of God. Please not that I'm using the term soul to mean the same thing as 'spirit'. In Eastern Mysticism there are no 'souls' per say. There is just spirit. In other words, the very idea of a 'soul' is an idea of an individual ego. But in Eastern Mysticism the ego is an illusion. Thus so is the notion of a 'soul'.

Spirit is all that exists, and we are that. "Tat t'vam asi"

So in this sense God does not "Create" life, but rather God creates physical manifestation. So God does create the body and 'soul'. Even though the 'soul' is transient. The soul is an illusion. It's a very REAL ILLUSION. People who think that illusions are not 'real' are not thinking correctly. There's a difference between being transitory and being permanent. In this sense we can recognize that the ego and soul are an 'illusion' (i.e. they are transitory). This doesn't mean that they aren't "real".

However, the underlying spiritual essence of all beings is eternal, and not transitory at all. So from the "spiritual" view the soul is not 'real' simply because it's transitory. This doesn't mean that it has no existence at all, this simply means that it's existence is fleeting. Kind of like we say that are dreams are not "real". Does that mean that dreams do not exist and that we can't experience them? Of course not. It simply means that they are fleeting and transitory and so we don't consider them to be as 'real' as our seemingly more permanent physical existence.

Well, it's the same thing with spirit. For spirit life is but a dream. The spirit is experiencing the dream in the sense of being a soul. The soul is transitory, the spirit is not. When soul dies, the spirit awakens from the dream and recognizes its true nature as eternal spirit.

All spirit is eternal, there is no such thing as 'creating' life. That is just an illusion of the dream.