ROMANS 9:14-24


14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,

and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”f

16It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”g 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?” 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”h 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

Anything that happens bad in our lives are brought on us by US.

That is a load of crap.. If God is responsible for the good, then he is responsible for the bad.

I am responsible for my actions, when I mess up, it is my fault, but when I do something good, That is also on me, not because someone or something allowed me to do it, but because I worked hard, and got it done.

Let me ask you this, a person has a young child, that young child ends up dying of a natural cause, there was no negligence, there was nothing that the doctors could have done. Would you say that is bad? What did the person do to bring that on?

bring what on? What is sad there? The child doesn't have to deal with the sickness, diseases, and other foul things of this earth. But gets a straight ticket to heavan.

And for the rest of your post, yes that is what i was saying. As i said ANYTHING BAD THAT HAPPENS IN OUR LIVES IS BROUGHT ON US BY US. Cause and effect kind of thing. Cause if it wasn't like that, it would be god intervening. And also before you play with that, intervening means specifically unwanted actions. If one prays for something, that is not intervening because it was asked for.

Certainly losing a child would be a bad thing, you said that anything bad is brought on by us, well, what is our fault, that brings on the natural death of a child?

The death is not a bad thing lol. The child has a straight ticket to heaven again without having to deal with all the pain and suffering of this earth. WHY IS THAT A BAD THING?

This almost sounds as if god in his infinite knowledge realized that he had to make souls to take his wrath out on. If he didn't have people to punish, the rest would take him for granted. God's "love" is based on fear, a "love me or else" thing. Sounds like the beginning of an abusive relationship to me.

God punishes no one. To put it in an earthly way of looking at it i'll pain you a picture.

"A boy and girl are dating, claiming they love each other. The girl steals something from the boy, the boy starts to drift away. But forgives her and continues to love her and see where it goes. The girl hits the boy upside the face, the boy drifts away a bit but continues to love her. The boy over hears the girl talking to some friends and hears her talking about her being with the boy just because he gives her shinning things and does what she wants." Then later on down the road the girl cheats on the boy. The boy has to draw a line there walking away. The boy and girl see each other at the store a couple days later and the boy acts like "HE NEVER KNEW HER"."

Same with God, God doesn't punish anyone.... just doesn't reward them for their disobedience. And in the end if you hadn't tried to fix the relationship and just left it as it was, and the two see each other at a store the boy will act like he doesn't know the woman.

Anything that happens bad in our lives are brought on us by US.

If he's willing to punish one of his creations, what makes you think he wouldn't punish others? I can remember a couple of times my own dad punished the innocent with the guilty, what makes you think the "heavenly father" would be any different?

If he's willing to punish one of his creations, what makes you think he wouldn't punish others? I can remember a couple of times my own dad punished the innocent with the guilty, what makes you think the "heavenly father" would be any different?

And further then that, what Lucifer did/was doing was far greater then anything anyone could do on earth.

Lucifer was proclaiming to be greater and more powerful then God himself. And is why he was kicked out of heaven.