Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of
hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.

Ugh, mispost.

Isaiah 44:6 is the quoted verse. I would like to see interpretations
from various people who are Christians or respect the Bible or just want
to offer an opinion. Who and what is being talked about?

God is king.

The messiah is commander of Gods hosts.

AB,

Who is speaking in this sentence: "I am the first, and I am the last;
and beside me there is no God"?

I wanted to do this as a thought exercise, but I'll go ahead and offer
my interepretation of this scripture.

Thus saith the LORD (Yahweh) the King of Israel, and his redeemer
(Messiah) the LORD (Yahweh) of hosts (armies);

Yahweh ALWAYS means God. In this scripture, we have Yahweh (the King of
Israel) and the Messiah (the Yahweh of hosts) speaking. And they (thus
saith the LORD...and His redeemer...) are saying "I am the first, and I
am the last; and beside me there is no God.", thus proving that the
Messiah and Yahweh are one in the same, they speak with one voice and
talk about themselves as being one God.

That depends on wether you are refering to the Christian Doctrine or the
Jewish.

To the Greek intrepretation (the Alpha and Omegain Scripture) or to the
Hebrew words of which Aleph and the Thaw became the Alpha and Omega.

In Hebrew this statement means 'truth'. In Christian Doctrine this
statement means the first and the last. When making this statement
Jesus is saying he is the truth. When creating false doctrine based on
Truth lost-by-translation Churches are attempting to twist the words to
make Christ God.

AdventureBegins,

In this prophecy, the Messiah is called Yahweh (not Adonai) of hosts.
Yahweh ALWAYS means God...not a god, but THE God. Jews say that the
scripture was written down incorrectly, some scribe screwed up, which is
hard to believe, because a mistake (if you were to believe it a mistake)
this huge would be grounds for stoning when the oldest existing copies
of Isaiah was penned.

AdventureBegins,

You can twist it any way you want, but you can't change the fact that in
this verse it is seen that God and the Messiah speak with one voice and
BOTH together are one God. It's a very troubling scripture for anyone
who isn't a Christian, because the ONLY other possible answer is that
some scribe screwed up really really bad and knowing their standards for
transcribing and their reverence for the scriptures, that's a very
distant long shot at best..

Spider there can be only one.

Thou shalt have no gods before me.

One of the true tests of doctrine... In order to be truth it can not
invalidate prophesy that came before it. No matter how you shape and
reform the words if a doctrine presented by a church as truth,
invalidates or appears to invalidate one of the basic tenets of all
abrahmic faith, that doctrine is man made and not of God.

Jesus can be from God, he can be the Word of God in the flesh, He can
speak as God but he can not BE God for that would violate 'Thou shalt
have no gods before me'.

AdventureBegins,

Nice dodge! But the scripture that I quoted blows everything you have
said out of the water. Jesus and the Father are ONE GOD. They aren't
two. They aren't three. They are ONE God. They speak with one voice.
How can I put God before God? In Revelation 21:7, Jesus says "He that
overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall
be my son." Let me repeat "and he shall be my son". Jesus is
indentifying himself as the Father.

There is only One God.

Let me put it a different way.

'THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GOD BEFORE ME!' Not even my son.

Because the accepted doctrine of the Chruch says it is so does not make
it so. Any claim that counters the word of god before it is a
falseness. This is a test of scripture. I wonder what that scripture
said before the Councils that modified it.

AdventureBegins,

Jesus is God, so there is no problem...but what you are sticking on is a
misconception. Christians don't worship Jesus, we worship the Father
and Jesus is our High Priest. We don't pray to Jesus, we pray in the
name (place) of Jesus. We pray for those things which we believe Jesus
would ask the Father for in our place. So there is no God before the
Father. Jesus worships the Father and we are to follow him and do as he
did, the example is set: worship God the Father.

Isaiah is in the books of the Prophets...why would the Jews turn over
all the copies of their sacred scriptures to be modified by the Nicean
council?

They did not have to. Isahia is written in Hebrew. In Hebrew this
statement means 'truth'. In Christian Doctrine this statement means the
first and the last (due to translation of the Hebrew into Greek.. i.e
Alph/Thaw into Alpha/Omega). When creating false doctrine based on Truth
lost-by-translation Churches are attempting to twist the words to make
Christ God.

I regret sir that I must say your comments look like circular logic.
'Jesus is God' or no wait a minute 'Jesus is our High Priest' but wait
another minute we pray as if we are Jesus.
'...we pray in the name (place) of Jesus) .
Why would you pray for things you think Jesus would ask for you? Why
not just pray for God to be in your life and follow the way of life
Jesus asked you to follow.

You may of course worship as you wish. I will pray to God when I pray.
There is no substitue for the real thing. There is no Church that can
contain God.

AdventureBegins,

I'm sorry that you aren't getting this, but I am repeating myself in
every post and it's almost like you are ignoring my statements.

Isaiah 44:6 (a)
-------------------------------------------------------------
Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of
hosts; <snip>
-------------------------------------------------------------

The word LORD appears in this verse twice. Both times, the word is
Yahweh, which ONLY means God. IGNORE THE SECOND HALF, OKAY? I'M NOT
TALKING ABOUT THAT. The Messiah is called Yahweh in the scripture.
ONLY God is called Yahweh. So in this scripture, the Messiah is shown
to be God.

Isaiah 44:6 (b)
-------------------------------------------------------------
<snip> I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Who is speaking in the above scripture? it clearly says in 44:6 (a)
that "the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts"
are speaking. Look at what THEY say "I am the..." INGORE THE REST FOR
NOW OR YOU WILL CONFUSE YOURSELF AGAIN. The word is "I", not "We".
They are speaking from the perspective of ONE being. What being? "and
beside me there is no God" in other words, I am the only God. Two
beings speaking and calling themselves the only God. I'm not refering
the "first...and...last..." part back to Revelation, but it would be
valid to do so. Do you get what I'm saying now? I'm really trying to
be clear, but this is my third time saying this and each of the previous
two times, you have run off on a tangent that I didn't even mention.

Spider I understand what you are trying to say.

I just don't buy your answer.

there is only one God.

I ain't confused. I am.

spider



You have much to learn. Yahshua was Yahweh in the OT. How? He came in
his authority. Yahweh is spirit he can not even come close to sin. No
one has seen Yahweh and live. Yahshua spoke constantly that he spoke
nothing of himself. That he spoke the words of his FATHER. Yahweh said
you are a rebellios people. And you prove it over and over.When Yahshua
cames back he comes in his father/familt name. Yahweh our Rightousness.
He will be Yahzikkinu. Se Zech 14 and see what it says. In rev.
Yahzikkinu is on earth as Yahweh come down out of heaven with the New
Jerusalem. How do you twist that one? Miles

Milesoftheusa,

I really am not sure what you are asking. But Jesus was described as
Malach Yahweh in the Old Testament. I'm really not interested in
arguing. If you were open to the truth, you would know it already. You
cling too closely to the legalistic interpretations of the Jews.

Malach means messenger.

Malach YHWH simply means messenger of God. So I reckon you could apply
that term to Jesus.

Or Krishna, Or Zoroaster, Or Moses, or many other Prophets like
Muhammad, or Baha'u'lla.

You could even apply that term to some that exist today.

God never leaves mankind without a messenger.

Jesus is part of the Trinity-The Holy 3 in one. Tough I am Tressia,
I am Tressia the mother, Tressia the sister and Tressia the friend.
Though I have different aspects of all those things together I can be
those things seperately-I am still Tressia.
John 14:6 says (Jesus speaking)
I am the way the truth and the life, No man cometh to the Father but by
me- We pray to God in Jesus ( Yeshua's) name
The whole reason Jesus ewas born, came to die was that our sins would be
imputed ( covered, unseen) by God. He cannot look upon sin. Now when We
are covered by the blood, He doesnt see our sins. He sees the sacrifice
that was made for us By Yeshua.
Heb 9:22 Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.

AdventureBegins,

When Malach Yahweh speaks, we are told that it is Yahweh who is
speaking. When someone sees Malach Yahweh, we are told that they have
seen the face of God. When someone worships Malach Yahweh, he NEVER
said "Stop, only God should be worshipped". Angels stopped people from
worshipping them, but not Malach Yahweh. When someone would meet Malach
Yahweh, He would say "Take off your shoes for this is Holy ground", only
God is Holy, so for Malach Yahweh's presence to make the ground Holy, he
must be God. Malach Yahweh was Jesus. This isn't something that I made
up, it's widely accepted by Christian theologians.