This is totally incorrect Sky.

At least based on the Inflation Theory of the Big Bang.

According to Inflation Theory the Big Bang actually stated as a quantum fluctuation. The laws of quantum phsyics must have necessarily pre-existed spacetime for that to have occurred.

So the idea that physics rules out a concept of 'before spacetime' is actually out-dated and no longer valid.

The current theory accepts that the laws of quantum mechanics exist 'outside' of spacetime.

So the laws of quantum mechanics can indeed be viewed as the preexisting mind of "god".

Sky wrote:



Space-time is not in question, besides that, without matter space-time is flat. The field equations require it. So to conclude that space-time precludes any concept of 'before' is false. All of that has no bearing on the topic though.

Without matter, spacetime is meaningless.

Just as soundly, the same evidence can indeed be viewed as the pre-existing mind of the pink and black elephantic smooge...

Any more evidence?

So is evidence.

Sound of an argument being completely shot full of holes =====> Bang! Bang!

Aaaaahhhhhhhrrrrrgggggghhhhhh. uuuhhh, aaaahhh, ooohhhh, gack, fluglug...

THUD!

Dum Dum da Dum, Dum da Dum dum dum dum Dum.

So?

All you're doing is making up silly labels for 'god'.

That doesn't change a thing.

The INFORMATION must still exist.

Whether you call it "god" or a "pink and black elephantic smooge" makes absolutely no difference at all.

It's the INFORMATION that exists. How you label it is utterly irrelevant.

Textbook logical refutation.

Label it as you see fit.

EDIT:

Better yet, let's call it Allah and attribute some man-made doctrine to it which rewards murder.

See the point yet?

Well, you asked for the evidence for design.

There it is. Call it whatever names you like. It won't make it go away.

Why?

Personally, I think the simple fact of it's existence is evidence enough to constitue absolute proof.

I don't see any need to go any farther than that.

Yes, I absolutely do see the point.

In other words, you're just a radical atheist out to put down religion at all cost and you couldn't care less about any serious philosophical questions.

You're jumping from questions of physics into extremely lame man-made mythologies.

Where's the connection there?

Are you suggesting that if a designer exists then the Mediterranean mythologies must also be correct?

That seems like a rather radical jump to a conclusion.

I asked for evidence of a designer of the universe.

The only way that can be done is if we first presuppose that the universe is a design, which necessitates the invocation of the designer's intent, purpose, and reason.

We cannot know any of that!

Truly.

I whole-heartedly agree.

It's as self-evident as anything can possibly be.

It it were truly happenstance we wouldn't be here talking about it.

Stay on task...

Quote my words. There is no need for speaking for me. I am perfectly capable if one asks pertinent questions...

If the universe is not a design and it is not an accident, then what is it?

The universe exists, therefore your idea of a creator also exists?

Hmmmmm....

Allah!

JB wrote:




It is the universe as we have come to know it. It is all of the things that we can perceive of it.

There is absolutely no logical reason to attribute it's existence to anything other than what we can know. Infinite regress.

I have to point out here that there is a presupposition on your part. That presupposing is that you are not the designer of the universe.

But if you were the designer, and you thereafter denied being the designer, then there obviously coud not be a designer as far as you're concerned. (You didn't design it, and no one else could have designed it, so there is no designer.)

Say what?

Sorry, but modern science has already made a very firm conclusion that we have no choice but to attribute the existence of this universe to what we can never know.

Currently this has even been proven mathematically, based on what we already believe to know.

Of course we could be wrong in what we already believe know, but at the present time it doesn't look like even that is going to be the case.

Right now it seriously looks like we have no choice but to attrbute the existence of this universe to something that the very laws of physics have forever forbade us from knowing.

So you're statement above just doesn't reflect the current state of affairs.

We have every logical reason to believe that the true underlying nature of this universe will forever remain unknowable to us.