Does this reality make sense?

What if we can only see what we can believe?

What if our minds cannot interpret, and will not interpret things we do not understand and so those things just past by our awareness?

If this is true, then we can only interpret things that make sense to us and things that confuse us are forgotten or not even noticed.

Applying this to Tarot Card reading means that we can only interpret a meaning that makes sense to us, and if it does not make sense to us at first, then our minds will find a path to reason it out to make sense in some other way.

Have you ever had a very odd and illogical dream but at the time you were dreaming everything in the dream seemed to make perfect sense? Then when you woke up you remembered the dream and realized that none of it made any logical sense at all?

What if our waking life is the same kind of thing. A dream that makes no sense and yet we rationalize it to make sense in some way, just as we do when we are dreaming.

This question came to me today in a flash and I wanted to write it down. It really freaked me out.

May be

Well, that would fly in the face of when people say things like, "I can't believe this is happening!"



Well, overall, I'm, sure this is true. We all see things from a different point of view. Far more so than we can ever even imagine. I say this because if we could imagine it we could probably see those points of view.

We all don't pick up on the same things in life. I know from my own life's experience that I was very technical and scientific. I have always had a difficult time picking up on subtle body-language cues and things like that. I'm sure that a lot has passed me by that I was totally unware of. People who are big into body language may have been trying to communicate with me and it's like I'm 'deaf' in that arena because I just don't "get it". I later discovered that this may be related to Asperger's syndrome, which I may have in some small degree (or at least similar symptoms).

There's no question that everyone does not experience life in the same way. We already know this through all these so-called 'psychological disorders'. The thing of it is that we are now recognizing and classifiying so many 'psychological disorders' that we are discovering that many of them are not "disorders" at all, but simply natural differences between humans.

There is no such thing as a 'perfectly healthy human' in terms of psychology because no two humans are alike. So which single unique human would be used as the model of "perfection"? Obviously it can't be me since I've already confessed to having at least some symptoms similar to Asperger's syndrome.

Another thing too is that people don't see the same things when they go places. When I was young I would go places with my sister and after we'd come home we'd talk about things like she'd say, "The music that resturant was playing was really cool!". And I'd be like, "What music? I don't even remember the music, but I thought the steps going up to the entrance were an engineering marvel", and she'd say, "Where there steps going up to the entrance? I don't remember?"

So at the very least everyone isn't impressed by the same things. And we tend to remember and think about the things that impress us.

So in that sense I'm sure we are all living entirely different realities, even those of us who are having very similar experiences.

I'm not sure it has to do with what we believe though. It probably has far more to do with what we preceive in terms of what impresses us the most. That's what we focus on, remember, and will affect how we think.

We probably also then begin to begin to notice more of what we notice. It probably snowballs. Like my sister probably continues to notice music more, whilst I continue to notice architecture more, and things like that.

So yes, I'm sure that our reality is affected by what interests us, and by what we are open to perceiving. I'm not sure if that's the same as what we 'believe' though. For example, do I believe in architecture more than I believe in music?

oh bean, this happens constantly. our minds can only interpret information that we sense, see, hear, taste, etc., that is delivered to the brain. as such the planets for instance at one time were simple specks of light in the night sky. now with astronomical technology, we see them close up and we have much more information for our minds to interpret. we could always see the planets. but our "eys" have greately improved.

then there are things we sense quite well and don't interpret. the sun on our skin we've always been able to feel as we do today. but only in the last several decades have our minds began to interpret the warmth we feel as dangerous to our health. of course that is of no concern to me. i love the sun. and i just can't imagine lieing on my death bed some day dieing of nothing.

What about imagination and creativity? Where does that come from?

Clearly it doesn't come from the normal physical senses that you've listed above.

Also when we look at the world around us and we see patterns from whence do those pattern arise? What is it about circles, rectangles, triangle, etc., that seem to be so innate to our brains?

Often times we are the ones who are placing patterns onto our environment, rather than the other way around. Have many different people view a piece of abstract art and they will all describe it differently in terms of entirely different patterns.

In some sense some of that information must be coming from within our minds.

of course imagination and creativity don't come from senses. i was addressing bean's question about what we can perceive, not what we imagine.

Yes, but don't we also perceive our imagination?

That's the whole question.

Where does imagination come from?

When you listed the senses you listed: see, hear, taste, etc.

Well, what does "etc." include?

Does it include the psyche? The imagination?

Or do you stop with the standard five: Sight, Hearing, Taste, Touch, and Scent.

What about the Psyche? Is that a sense too?

If it is, is it a physical sense? Or something else?

Moreover, with respect to this topic just how much does the psyche affect our perception of the other senses? It seems to ultimately be involved in all of them.

As I had mentioned before do patterns actually exist in nature, or does our psyche place patterns onto nature?

To me this is fundamental.

To just shrug off the psyche as being irrelavent to perception seems to me to be shrugging off the most important sense of all.

Yes, but do they?

Most of us have all the sensory organs and can see, hear, taste etc. BUT I am talking about the actual accurate perception of what we see, hear, taste touch etc....

I am asking that if we don't believe it is there, can we actually "see" it? Or does it disappear from our reality and our memory?

Hypnotism has demonstrated that if a person is convinced something is there, they WILL see it and if they are convinced that it is not there when it is, and they believe it, they cannot see it at all, and in fact, can see right through it.

This suggests that the mind cannot see something if they don't believe it is there, can't comprehend it, or if they absolutely do not believe it is possible.

Therefore I am suggesting that if we really don't believe it exists, or cannot begin to comprehend what we are seeing, we probably can't see it, or interpret it accurately. If it is beyond our conscious comprehension, we just don't comprehend it and the information is simply discarded.

We can't see it. We can't comprehend it. We forget it. It disappears from our memory and our reality.

I think when people say that they don't really mean it. If they did not believe it was happening, they would not be aware of it, nor would they accept the reality of it.

I guess they call that 'denial.'

But isn't that the antithesis of your original inquiry?

You originally asked, "What if we can only see what we can believe?"

Now you're saying that if we don't believe what's happening around us then we're in denial.

So in this latter sense you're basically saying that it really doesn't matter what we believe with respect to what's actually happening to us. If we don't believe it, we're just in denial.

Where your original question was asking if we can only see what we can believe.

I guess the "being in denial" would only be apparent to other observers. To the person in question, it would not matter. They just would not see it.

Lets see if I can use an example.

I have heard my older sister's interpretation of things that happened when we were children and I was there, and I remember the event, but her way of telling the story frames the event in a much more traumatic and dramatic way.

Now either she was just more sensitive and traumatized or I was not perceiving the event the same way or with the same seriousness. Am I "in denial" or is she just being dramatic because of her special sensitivity?

also:

If we don't believe what's happening and thus don't see or remember it, at least for us, it did not really happen.

Or are we in denial of it? If people tell us it happened, do we believe them and accept it? Even if we trust them enough to believe them, how can it become part of our lives if we do not remember it?

If you had a history with someone and suddenly they 'forgot' or lost their memory of all of it and lost their memory of you, you would not exist to them. And yet you do exist, and you had a history with that person... a fact to you, but not a fact to them.

So if you hold a grudge against a person for past transgressions, but they don't remember any of that, and they seem to be a changed person, how can you hold onto any grudge or anger about them? For them it never happened.

Also, if you can't remember an experience, does it fail to effect your life? The drug that causes you to forget some procedures that were done to you while you were fully conscious at the time causes that trauma to disappear in your memory and so for you it was like it never happened.

The "date rape" drug is a good example. A person raped, does not remember the experience, but still they were raped, and they could even be pregnant. Yet in their mind, it never happened.

Ever been reading a book and gotten to the end of the page and realize that you don’t remember what you just read? There’s a whole section of text you went over, but it’s all just plain blank? (i.e. "just passed by your awareness")

Well that is an example of just exactly what you’re talking about. There was some point while reading where you came across something that was confusing and that confusing thing, plus everything after it, “just passed by your awareness”.

Often people will go back and read over what the “missed” and have the same thing happen again…and again. It is not until the confusion is resolved that they will be able to read it without it “just passing by their awareness.”

Exactly. That's what happens to me in a math class. It goes right over my head or through it.. I don't know quite which. But it is not that I can't understand it at the time, sometimes I do. But it just does not stay in there. (Word problems come to mind.)

What you are talking about extends to what you actually experience, and how you remember it. You can have an experience at one time in your life, and then have it affect you far differently later, when your understanding of it changes. Some people who have been through life-threatening experiences when young, feel fine for years, then suddenly experience panic attacks later in life when they fully realize how close they came to death.

Just don't make the mistake in these musings, of thinking that your perceptions are a controlling factor in what IS actually real. Although I know of no way to prove it, other than anecdotally, reality will have its way over perceptions every time.
Many a science fiction writer has had fun with invasions of invisible aliens who operate on a different light wavelength out of our normal range, or who live in different dimensions than we perceive.
Having wrestled with this myself a while back, I decided that my life was too difficult as it was for me to add a worry that there might be invisible things going on as well. At the same time, I periodically run into problems with my perceptions, and have to be prepared to adjust accordingly.
One big problem I have with this, is part of my being what is classified as ADD these days. The way I put it, is that all too often, my inner mind will refuse what my eyes are offering it, and will instead do the equivalent of playing a recording to me instead. This makes it very hard to find my keys at times. They can be right in front of me, in the open, and I wont see them because I'm so convinced I left them elsewhere. My mind plays the empty table tape to me. I finally found a trick to overcome it though: when I can't find something, and I'm afraid my expectations are in the way, I look for it again while CROUCHING DOWN. The shift in angle forces my mind to take in the ACTUAL scene I'm seeing, and I find what I'm looking for.

I had hoped to avoid discussions centered around “what is and is not real”. That is precisely why I asked the question “How do we determine what is real?” instead of “What is real?”

This statementis an example of what I was trying to avoid.

I starts with a premise (opinion) that “what we perceive” and “what is real” are, or can be, different.

Well if that is so, then what is the intrinsic difference? What is it that makes “reality” different from “perception”?

So again: How does one differentiate between “what is perceived” and “what is real”?

edit: Oops. Sorry, I got confused between this and my "Reality.vs.Perception" thread. But I think it is applicatble to both.

That's right. I can, for instance, always see a date rape when I look at one.

Q.E.D., date rape is a good example. (To show to our young and restless?)

That's very interesting. I have consulted the Tarot cards when I have lost things sometimes. I don't know how exactly or why but I have found things in this manner several times.

It think our minds actually know where the item is, but we just can't extract the information. It is like its just on the tip of my brain. LOL.

Yes even if a person says that what we perceive (or miss) and what is actually 'real' are different, who would be the one that would know?

Does anyone have the authority to determine what is real and what is not outside of themselves? I don't think so. That is why we tend to confer with others about what is real and if we agree, then maybe we vote or something.

I have been quite surprised in talking to my sisters about our childhood. We have very different memories of events that we supposedly shared. To the point where I'm wondering if they just made this story up off the top of their head. And, it's not always childhood memories. Some of these memories are from teen years.