Miles> I do not usually post directly to you but you stated...

(4) The Bible (a finite number of particles sitting on my desk) does not
totally define an infinite being such as God. I said that it is
(perhaps) one of the ways in which he reveals parts of his character
(i.e. his definition) to us.
================================================================
I must respectfully disagree with this statement. The bible in its
physical aspect is as you state a finite number of particles bound in
the physical world in bindings a paper. It however so much more than
that for contained within the finite ink scratched on the finite paper
is the living INFINITE message of God. Knowledge is never finite you
can go back to a part you have read many times and see the answer to a
question you just asked today weaved within the answers you found therin
to a question you asked yesterday.

rambill wrote:
“That being said, there are legions of true believers in all these
churches, maybe despite their teachings”

I think most everyone will agree with you on this. When people discuss
religions on a forum they are usually talking about the
institutionalized side of it, or conversing about possible meanings of
documentations. I don’t believe anyone intends to question the faith of
any individual believers.

I most certainly do not, and I hope no one gets that impression of me
because that would be a totally incorrect impression. I address things
from a purely philosophical point of view, and with the concern of all
humanity. I an not even thinking in terms of individuals.

However, I might suggest that some people who post to the forums are
thinking in terms of converting the faith of individual people. I
personally feel that this is an improper use of the forums.

It is my view of the forums here that they are for discussing religions,
not for preaching them. I feel that churches are for that. In fact,
I'm sure there are actual on-line churches. I mean, I haven’t really
checked, but I’d totally fall off my chair with disbelief if they don’t
exist.

Sheila writes:

"Then why do you oftentimes write about God and particularly those who
believe in Him in such a negative and nasty way? "

I can't speak for Abra, but non-believers often have to have thick skin
when called upon to make a declaration of their own beliefs. Often one
doesn't ask for these confrontations, they just happen. Such as when
strangers knock on the door and try to convert me. When you *try* to
tell them "No, thanks", they'll do the 20 questions dealie on me, and
when my reasons don't resonate with their beliefs, *they* often become
haughty and, sometimes, even abusive.

If I had absolutely had to wear a label, it would say 'Secular
Humanist'. Or John Donne-ist (paraphrased):

"Anyone's death diminishes me, because I am involved in humankind; and
therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for
thee."

See, I think if your faith brings you comfort, if its rites and rituals
lift your spirits, I wholeheartedly think you should not be dissuaded
from that which sets you free from the pain, the uncertainty, the fear
of the unknown and whatever else wounds your psyche.

I've nearly died twice over the last decade. I've watched people close
to me die of awful things like cancer. I've sat through the rites, and
I've seen the surcease and the comfort it gave them. It didn't break my
legs or my spirit to see it help them through the last days of their
lives. I even played hymns for Mom on a Yamaha synth when the chemo and
radiation were taking a heavy toll on her. To this very day, I can play
about a dozen from memory and not miss a note.

I just wish fundamentalists would do God's work, not his job. There's
just so much out there yet to do, and couldn't care less who gets the
credit. I think eternity will take care of itself. To yet again
paraphrase, "Like charity, eternity begins at home." By that, I mean the
human heart and soul empties itself into the great ocean of the Racial
Memory, which goes forward without end as long as there is a single
person left to remember.

Strive to be Excellent to each other.

-Kerry O.

I can't speak for Abra, but non-believers often have to have thick skin
when called upon to make a declaration of their own beliefs.

And you presume believers don't???

****

Often one doesn't ask for these confrontations, they just happen. Such
as when strangers knock on the door and try to convert me.

How do you think *I* feel when strangers knock on my door and try to
convert me, even AFTER I tell them I'm already a Christian???

***

When you *try* to tell them "No, thanks", they'll do the 20 questions
dealie on me, and when my reasons don't resonate with their beliefs,
*they* often become haughty and, sometimes, even abusive.

Preaching to the choir. A JW followed me around while I was mowing the
yard one day! I turned around and started "chasing" her with the
lawnmower!

***

If I had absolutely had to wear a label, it would say 'Secular
Humanist'. Or John Donne-ist (paraphrased):

"Anyone's death diminishes me, because I am involved in humankind; and
therefore, never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for
thee."

Wonderful.

***

See, I think if your faith brings you comfort, if its rites and rituals
lift your spirits, I wholeheartedly think you should not be dissuaded
from that which sets you free from the pain, the uncertainty, the fear
of the unknown and whatever else wounds your psyche.

It's not a matter of that and that alone. I don't believe in God simply
as a way of "managing my fears." For one thing, my belief in God has
very few times brought me any level of emotional comfort. That may sound
"odd," but it's true. But I know that having a belief in God doesn't
guarantee me any measurse of comfort, of happiness or of a sense of
well-being, necessary. Many people who are belivers have suffered
siginificantly, and far more than what I ever have.

***

I just wish fundamentalists would do God's work, not his job.

Totally agree with you there.

***

There's just so much out there yet to do, and couldn't care less who
gets the credit. I think eternity will take care of itself. To yet again
paraphrase, "Like charity, eternity begins at home." By that, I mean the
human heart and soul empties itself into the great ocean of the Racial
Memory, which goes forward without end as long as there is a single
person left to remember.

Strive to be Excellent to each other.

Sounds good to me.

You addressed this to me specifically, so I will point out for you that
I'm the farthest thing from being a "fundamentalist" there is.

-Sheila C.

AB
Are you sure i said that. You numered it 4. Is that from my copy and
paste of Genisis 2:4 where is says that before that verse what was said
is history of the heavens and the earth. I am not sure what you are
talking about i have not been on here for a while..

rambill79 Thanks.
I believe you put me in with the Apostles and what they said about the
messiah. I am not the only one who believes like i do. I believe in
truth and only truth. I have suffered greatly because of my belief and
have grown immenencely from it. Praise Yahweh. i believe now if death
stood at my door maybe i could hold fast to the word and not deny
Yahshua. What I post is from the bible. Yahweh is the son and Yahshua
ios the son and to put it blaintly so the rest of you can attack me. (
but be sure you know what you are talking about) the spirit of ant-
messiah is the spirit of what is quoted in John 5:43 Yahshua said he was
not excepted and he came in his fathers name. tHE BIBLE SAYS THIER IS
ONLY 1 NAME IN WHICH MAN CAN BE SAVED.Yahshua means Yahweh is Salvation.
He goes on to say if another comes in his own name him you will accept.
(and he is talking about the same word we have and the pharasses had.
Thier is only one name that uses the Holy Scriptures and preaches an
evangel forign to Yahshua. The Anti- messiah. Did you guess it Jesus
Christ the imposter.. Miles The truth will set you free

sorry i meant Yahweh is the FATHER. miles

Miles> you busted me. It was supposed to be addressed to Ely.

And Yahweh is but the name assigned to God by man after Moses entered
the world. Before that it was EL and El-yon or El-yan. Once again
mankind places a name on the unknowable essense. I am curious as to
what Adam called God. His was the task of naming all that he saw and
encountered.

But of course the Torah claims that Moses had the authority to name god.
Or does it. Is it the Torah the makes this claim or the book of laws
that was written by man that makes this claim?

one more thing some people who you greatly disagree with i stand up for
mainly AB and Abracadabra. Why because they question in truth. They do
not sit back and say well i have believed this all my life so it must be
true. No they are looking for answers and saying what they believe and
even asking you to show them. The disiples did the same thing. They were
not popular when Yahshua was being tried they were greatly afraid
because they knew the people hated Yahshua and they knew if they were
deemed friends of them they might suffer the same fate. Thankfully as
Yahshua promiced the comforter came to give them the faith and zeal to
stand up and say the truth. Yahshua also prophesied that at the end
(which i believe we are close) men would hate those who spoke out the
evangel he preached and they also would be hated of men. so to think
mainstream ideas are what is truth is making Yahshua out to be a liar
and you will be judged by him not me. I am just warning you and trying
to make you think about what the Holy Scriptures really say. So that
some might be saved. His sheep know his voice and another they will not
follow. Miles

AB it was Yahweh. capitol LORD is not recorded until Gen 2:4 they used
LORD instead of YHWH before Gen 2:4 ye he is called Elohim. Plural for
Father and son were the creator. But Yahshua created as Yahweh commanded
him as John1:1 says. Miles

Miles, I don't say "well, I've believed this all my life so it must be
true." There again, yet ANOTHER person who thinks that just because
someone chooses to worship God and follow Christianity that they must be
some kind of a "moron." Yes, only those smart enough to have 'figured
out' are the ones with any "brains." GMAFB, wouldja?

Ah but history shows us that Elhom was but one of two, for Judae split
into two, one becoming Elhost and one becoming Jahist. The most amazing
things happen to religious writing when two hands reach for the one
Sceptor at the same time. There is but one Lawgiver and one Sceptor and
yet two who laid claim to Them. Each providing proofs by the Word
they(ahem) 'spoke' as 'truth'.

No wonder God calls them a stiff necked people and an unruly child.

Abra:

I agree with almost all of what you have written in many of your posts
since the last one that I wrote. Let me offer some words that might
clear up some confusion.

First of all, you are correct in pointing out that the Bible clearly
does portray God as an acting, egotistical, jealous, separate being. I
believe that those adjectives fully describe God, and that God is wholly
good, perfect, and sinless. I don't see any conflict between those
adjectives and his being perfect, totally and undeniably good, and
completely sinless.

Second, I totally respect the point of view that the Bible is merely a
collection stories written by men. I don't share this point of view, but
I respect your opinion. My posts, though, have been my effort to
demnstrate that you can't use historical evidence or science to "prove"
that the books are the works of men, uninspired by a God. I agree that
the books built on each other over 4000+ years, but they only built on
each other because God was responsible for it. He directly prompted and
inspired the men to write the specific words that he wanted recorded.
That is the miraclulous part. And then, once transcribed into ink and
paper, the miracle then goes on obeying the laws of physics like
anything else. Texts become corrupted; translations confuse
interpretations.

It's the same effect as in the case of every other miracle in the Bible.
Miraculous bread fills people, miraculous wine intoxicates, miraculous
books can get corrupted. It does not take away from their
miraculous-ness (That previous line is a paraphrase of CS Lewis, in his
book Miracles. If you're sincere about being open minded about miracles,
you really must read that book).

Thus, if God can create a miraculous book, make a miraculous flood,
raise someone from the dead, etc, then why is it difficult to believe
that he could not make sure that his message is not corrupted?
Obviously, to believe that it was corrupted, you have to believe either
that God did not want to preserve it, or else that he could not preserve
it. Those beliefs are totally fine and respectable, but they differ from
Christianity.

All I am saying is that you can't use science, logic, or historical
inquiry to determine whether those points of view are right. Thus, the
choice to believe that the Bible is just a set of stories is a religious
belief. It is no different than believing that the Bible is the inspired
word of God. Neither can be demonstrated via science or historical
inquiry.

One philosophical argument for the belief that the Bible is the inspired
word of God is that the consistency of theme between all of the works is
staggeringly impressive. It's as if a set of 30 authors sat down at a
convention for a few months and worked out an amazing, 2000+ page
philosophy of the universe. But, we know from archeology that the
various books were written at different times and in different places by
hilariously different people from different backgrounds that had (in
most cases) absolutely no contact with any of the other authors. Even if
some "council" had "doctored" it in the early 1000s (which they didn't)
all that would mean is that the portion of the Bible that made it
through their filter is still awe inspiringly impressive in its breadth
and consistency.

Of course, that doesn't make it true. I'm only saying that there are
real, legitimate, intellectually robust arguments for the case that the
Bible is the inspired word of God. The "intellectual" approach is not
necessarily to assume that the Bible is just a set of myths.

Myths attempt to explain all of the workings of the physical universe.
Greek mythology, for example, served its purpose as science, not just
religion. The same is true of Native American mythology, etc.
Christianity (and Islam) are fundamentally different. None of the
stories are meant to explain science, rather they directly serve the
purpose of understanding those (necessarily rare) times when science is
interrupted.

So, in summary, all I am saying is that you have to presuppose that God
is not egotistical before you can draw the conclusions from the Bible
that you are. You can't use history to "prove" or "draw" the conclusions
that God is an ambient force, and you definitely cannot use science.

But I'm not trying to say that you're wrong. I'm only saying that I can
make philosophical challenges to this "ambient, non-egotistical, force"
definition of God. In my reading (which is surprisingly extensive for a
20-something-year-old) I have never found a serious or successful reply
to the arguments made by CS Lewis in the 1940s in his book Miracles. A
strict idea of naturalism is not sustainable. Your idea of naturalism
(plus inherent "conciousness and intelligence") is not contradictory and
can be sustained, but I argue it can only be sustained if you render all
thought meaningless for the purpose of gathering objective truth.

Perhaps thought does not tell us anything about "truth." Hume and Camus
argued that thought really tells us nothing but subjective nonsense. If
you accept that, it's fine. Really, I do not mean to belittle that idea
at all. I'm just saying I disagree. I believe that science itself is a
testament to the fact that our thoughts are valid. And since they are
valid, there must be some external foundation that makes them valid.
When I went looking for that external foundation, I found the Christian
God.

Wow....wheres the clapping hands icon??
Kat

Let's see - reasons to believe in God.

Peace in knowing you will live for eternity in the sight of God.
Oh wait, I think I misrepresented, let me try again.
Peace in knowing that if you try really hard to do Gods work, and pray
for your salvation through Jesus, someday, maybe, you be granted eternal
live in the sight of God.
(of course you don't get to live with God, only in his sight, and you
still have to be human, but you will never get sick and die, of course
this means reproduction is probably out of the question, since
overpopulation could present a problem, but
still this must work because, well reason #2)

Millions and Millions of people over many generations can not be wrong.

and of course the ever popular -

What if its true?

Yes, Christians must have a tough skin also.


What everyone believes, what everyone feels comes from some truth within
them. It's that truth that gives them some sense of being, some comfort
of purpose.

Now if we can only find a place in that truth to accept others,
including their truths, what might we all accomplish.

Let's keep looking!

Indeed....but, lets keep TRYING.
Kat

Jean. Get some books on greek mythology and Egyptian myths and see if
what you believe is closer to them or the Holy scriptures.. Like they
say "It's all Greek to me" Miles

i don't believe in Greek mythology, etc.

and what that has to do with my belief in God is beyond me.

Miles, there are many here that question the truth. I for one am one of
those. I question myself, what it is I am to believe in. I research and
research to find answers for myself and any who ask.

I may not be the brightest bulb in the box, but I am not a moron either.
Believe me, I will defend my beliefs. I will do it my way and in any way
that He chooses for me too. I do not simply come to my beliefs by way of
stupidity. I do not simply read and take it for truth. I do my homework.
For the most part I am not told what to believe by anyone except myself
and the spirit that is over me. The road to wisdom does not come easy.
It is a work in progress every single day for me.

I have not always believed in God or had any spiritual beliefs, up until
recently in my life. I am a baby in Gods ways.

Now, I may have misinterpreted something up there, if I did. I
apologize.

Kat

scttrbrain
Thats great. Seek and you will find. A very true statement. More need
to seek as you are. May YHWH Bless YOUR HOUSEand GIVE You Wisdom and
Understanding

Jean. What I am saying is what the mainstream christian religion
practices you can just look up in an encyclopedia and find out where it
came from. It is not hard. Yahshua said "what does light have to do with
darkness" Do you think Yahshua would call Pagan practices darkness?
Miles