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| Topic: Gay Penguins Split | |
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Yes but wait, I'm curious, did you not say that the more you dwell on your attraction to women, why would you be dwelling on it. I wasn't being very clear, I was also refering to subconscious habits. Not like I'm sitting here deliberately dwelling on my attraction to women, but that I have unconscious habits of thought which continuously reinforce my attraction. As far as "why I do it"... it seems natural and automatic for me to do it. I don't have any motivation to try to change this. I like being heterosexual, and I like finding women attractive. And if you were to become a monk it would not be you that was influencing your decision to be less attracted to women, it would be that religion. I'm not sure I understand - are you saying that the environment provided by the religion may be instrumental in any changes? Or that a person loses their autonomy after joining a religion like that? or something else? but that doesn't erase the original attraction, it only replaces it with what you trained yourself to do, no? That's something for me to think about. I wonder how much of our desire is 'the original attraction', and how much is created and reinforced through time? I suppose I'm suggesting that I agree with you, but that this may be most of what attraction and desire is composed of. Which leads to another opinion I have, which is sometimes unpopular in the gay community (though I strongly support gay rights) - attraction amongst gays is just like attraction amongst heterosexual: it is shaped by your previous experiences. You can not chose something you are not attracted to with out some sort of emotional guilt being pressed upon you, unless it's by force. Well, you'd have to have a motive, I agree! And I also don't personally see any good reason for having a motive. So I'm totally not trying to say anything about what gay people 'should' do, not at all, I'm just stating an opinion about what is possible. I am no sure were are on the same wave length, but I sure wish we were sitting in the same room. I believe we could have one facinating conversation. As for the monk thing, why would one become a monk unless they believed in the reason they become a monk, so yes you would have to be influenced by the religion that calls for a monk to be a monk, no? what do you mean by attraction amonst gays is just like attraction amonst hetrosexual? it is shaped by previous experiences? I think I know what you mean but I want to be sure first... |
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Also, beyond that there is something to be said for the way the culture promotes homosexuality, and plays up the whole tolerance thing. Look at how many people in Hollywood are either openly gay or gay but hiding it. I don't think this is by coincidence, the people who promote this lifestyle know exactly what they are doing in doing so. The more they blur they line as to what is normal and accepted, the more confused the populace will be, and the more likely they will accept the messages being put out. You see this in all kinds of aspects of sexuality, body image, when to have sex, etc. What it's resulted in, is the downfall of morals, values and the overall family unit, which was the whole idea behind all this from the start. Wow, who 'aren't' you insulting in this post? Of course it couldn't be that human beings are recognizing the diversity in this universe and or that they are evolving beyond the thinking of the 12th century? Nope there just stupid gullible people being duped by those scheming gays... ugh The reason for a lot of this diversity though is coming from what we are being taught, both in schools and in the media. They've been trying to reshape our minds in a million different ways over time, from what we eat and drink, to what we wear and how we view each other. As one could see if they look at the world now, it's been working. I might add that, all this evolving you speak of, has it really been all that helpful to us as a nation and world? Look at the number of broken homes, single parents, divorces, etc. All this is a product of the "evolved" state of society. Is that really a good thing? I somehow don't think so. Isn't it great that there's more diversity now? Interesting ..... except that there have always been gay people. Do you know about how the men were during the time of Socrates? Btw, I'm a single parent that is raising one awesome child. One good parent is better then one good and one bad parent. |
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What you say is just what I feel is the problem in how we view issues such as homosexuality. There is too much hate, and not enough love, and as a result very little discussion about the matter beyond right and wrong Don't get me wrong, a person ought to be told the truth on such matters, however it has to be done a certain way. When or if I ever become a father, I'd like for my kids to be able to come to me with anything on their mind, to be able to discuss things openly with me regardless of what the issue is. Once having established that, there can be more of a dialogue between myself and my kids, about the issue at hand. Does that make sense? It sounds like you would prioritize loving your child, no matter what. Is that right? I'm uncomfortable discussing anything like 'how people should parent'. I mean, I have opinions, but its one place where people should have respect for other people's choices. I think the real question is 'what is TRULY in the childs best interest', and I think in some part you and I come to different answers. |
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Also, beyond that there is something to be said for the way the culture promotes homosexuality, and plays up the whole tolerance thing. Look at how many people in Hollywood are either openly gay or gay but hiding it. I don't think this is by coincidence, the people who promote this lifestyle know exactly what they are doing in doing so. The more they blur they line as to what is normal and accepted, the more confused the populace will be, and the more likely they will accept the messages being put out. You see this in all kinds of aspects of sexuality, body image, when to have sex, etc. What it's resulted in, is the downfall of morals, values and the overall family unit, which was the whole idea behind all this from the start. Wow, who 'aren't' you insulting in this post? Of course it couldn't be that human beings are recognizing the diversity in this universe and or that they are evolving beyond the thinking of the 12th century? Nope there just stupid gullible people being duped by those scheming gays... ugh The reason for a lot of this diversity though is coming from what we are being taught, both in schools and in the media. They've been trying to reshape our minds in a million different ways over time, from what we eat and drink, to what we wear and how we view each other. As one could see if they look at the world now, it's been working. I might add that, all this evolving you speak of, has it really been all that helpful to us as a nation and world? Look at the number of broken homes, single parents, divorces, etc. All this is a product of the "evolved" state of society. Is that really a good thing? I somehow don't think so. I was shaped by a christian focused family. Thankfully I wasn't so easily shaped or convinced or indoctrinated or swayed by the tactics of the church to conform. You believe we are being reshaped into something negative. I believe society is fighting the brain washing of my generation and those before mine. You see the world as going to hell, I see the world as trying to over come the hell they have created for others. |
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beings are recognizing the diversity in this universe and or that they are evolving beyond the thinking of the 12th century? Nope there just stupid gullible people being duped by those scheming gays... ugh I thought he was basically saying that 1) people are shaped by their culture, and that 2) hollywood plays a huge role in this in the US, that 3) there has been a deliberate effort by many people to cultivate greater acceptance of gays, and 4) that he thinks this is a bad thing. I agree with 3 out of 4.  Let's see I agree with 1 to a point, and do agree with 2 and 3. And I see it as evolved and good for the most part, though I recognise people don't alway do anything or the right reasons. |
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I am no sure were are on the same wave length, but I sure wish we were sitting in the same room. I believe we could have one facinating conversation. I agree! Its easier in conversation to figure out what you really mean as you are talking. As for the monk thing, why would one become a monk unless they believed in the reason they become a monk, so yes you would have to be influenced by the religion that calls for a monk to be a monk, no? I guess I thought, when you said "influence by the religion", that you meant either 'against their will' or 'as an unthinking vessel'. what do you mean by attraction amonst gays is just like attraction amonst hetrosexual? it is shaped by previous experiences? After I said this I remembered reading how some people have found evidence suggesting that genetic programming played a role in our attraction to certain facial features and such, so this is totally not a cut and dried issue. And every person is different. What I feel very safe in saying is that a lot of people find themselves being attracted to people who have physical features similar to people they had previously found attractive. Like, he was never particularly interested in brunettes, then he dated a brunette and really loved her, they broke up, and from then on found himself attracted to brunettes That kind of thing. I know a guy who was never attracted to overweight woman, and some point in his 30s he fell in love with an overweight woman, and then had a 'thing' for overweight women from then on. I'd say that this phenomena can influence the issue of orientation itself. Its hard to talk about this without making an absurd oversimplification, and in a conversation like this, oversimplification can easily lead to angry people. |
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beings are recognizing the diversity in this universe and or that they are evolving beyond the thinking of the 12th century? Nope there just stupid gullible people being duped by those scheming gays... ugh I thought he was basically saying that 1) people are shaped by their culture, and that 2) hollywood plays a huge role in this in the US, that 3) there has been a deliberate effort by many people to cultivate greater acceptance of gays, and 4) that he thinks this is a bad thing. I agree with 3 out of 4. Put it this way, when have you ever known the media to push ideas and standards that won't benefit them in some way? Anything they are going to promote, they generally have a reason behind it that has nothing to do with our good, including homosexuality. Ah and you can say the exact same for the many religious channels and news outlets that push christian attitudes or morality. |
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The reason for a lot of this diversity though is coming from what we are being taught, both in schools and in the media. They've been trying to reshape our minds in a million different ways over time, from what we eat and drink, to what we wear and how we view each other. As one could see if they look at the world now, it's been working. What do you think the religious community has been doing for hundreds of years, so because that influence isn't working so good in our current times, anything else is wrong? Sorry but no church or gay group influences what I eat drink wear. I think you referring to commercial interests who use the media to influence what people buy their produces, something that even the church does regularly. |
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Also, beyond that there is something to be said for the way the culture promotes homosexuality, and plays up the whole tolerance thing. Look at how many people in Hollywood are either openly gay or gay but hiding it. I don't think this is by coincidence, the people who promote this lifestyle know exactly what they are doing in doing so. The more they blur they line as to what is normal and accepted, the more confused the populace will be, and the more likely they will accept the messages being put out. You see this in all kinds of aspects of sexuality, body image, when to have sex, etc. What it's resulted in, is the downfall of morals, values and the overall family unit, which was the whole idea behind all this from the start. Wow, who 'aren't' you insulting in this post? Of course it couldn't be that human beings are recognizing the diversity in this universe and or that they are evolving beyond the thinking of the 12th century? Nope there just stupid gullible people being duped by those scheming gays... ugh The reason for a lot of this diversity though is coming from what we are being taught, both in schools and in the media. They've been trying to reshape our minds in a million different ways over time, from what we eat and drink, to what we wear and how we view each other. As one could see if they look at the world now, it's been working. I might add that, all this evolving you speak of, has it really been all that helpful to us as a nation and world? Look at the number of broken homes, single parents, divorces, etc. All this is a product of the "evolved" state of society. Is that really a good thing? I somehow don't think so. I was shaped by a christian focused family. Thankfully I wasn't so easily shaped or convinced or indoctrinated or swayed by the tactics of the church to conform. You believe we are being reshaped into something negative. I believe society is fighting the brain washing of my generation and those before mine. You see the world as going to hell, I see the world as trying to over come the hell they have created for others. I actually see it the other way around, if anything I think society now is more brainwashed then they ever were before. The general populace thinks everything the media says is truth, and if it doesn't come from a "legit" source, they're wrong or biased. |
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beings are recognizing the diversity in this universe and or that they are evolving beyond the thinking of the 12th century? Nope there just stupid gullible people being duped by those scheming gays... ugh I thought he was basically saying that 1) people are shaped by their culture, and that 2) hollywood plays a huge role in this in the US, that 3) there has been a deliberate effort by many people to cultivate greater acceptance of gays, and 4) that he thinks this is a bad thing. I agree with 3 out of 4. Put it this way, when have you ever known the media to push ideas and standards that won't benefit them in some way? Anything they are going to promote, they generally have a reason behind it that has nothing to do with our good, including homosexuality. Ah and you can say the exact same for the many religious channels and news outlets that push christian attitudes or morality. To be honest, I feel that a lot of christian attitudes aren't all what they seem in the media either. I don't care much for man made religion, I've more or less split from that way of thinking. Still believe in God, but more on my own. |
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What you say is just what I feel is the problem in how we view issues such as homosexuality. There is too much hate, and not enough love, and as a result very little discussion about the matter beyond right and wrong Don't get me wrong, a person ought to be told the truth on such matters, however it has to be done a certain way. When or if I ever become a father, I'd like for my kids to be able to come to me with anything on their mind, to be able to discuss things openly with me regardless of what the issue is. Once having established that, there can be more of a dialogue between myself and my kids, about the issue at hand. Does that make sense? It sounds like you would prioritize loving your child, no matter what. Is that right? More or less, though I would try and raise them as best I can as to how the world works, but doing so in a loving way, to where it can be discussed openly. |
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Edited by
Kleisto
on
Wed 07/22/09 08:12 PM
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Also, beyond that there is something to be said for the way the culture promotes homosexuality, and plays up the whole tolerance thing. Look at how many people in Hollywood are either openly gay or gay but hiding it. I don't think this is by coincidence, the people who promote this lifestyle know exactly what they are doing in doing so. The more they blur they line as to what is normal and accepted, the more confused the populace will be, and the more likely they will accept the messages being put out. You see this in all kinds of aspects of sexuality, body image, when to have sex, etc. What it's resulted in, is the downfall of morals, values and the overall family unit, which was the whole idea behind all this from the start. Wow, who 'aren't' you insulting in this post? Of course it couldn't be that human beings are recognizing the diversity in this universe and or that they are evolving beyond the thinking of the 12th century? Nope there just stupid gullible people being duped by those scheming gays... ugh The reason for a lot of this diversity though is coming from what we are being taught, both in schools and in the media. They've been trying to reshape our minds in a million different ways over time, from what we eat and drink, to what we wear and how we view each other. As one could see if they look at the world now, it's been working. I might add that, all this evolving you speak of, has it really been all that helpful to us as a nation and world? Look at the number of broken homes, single parents, divorces, etc. All this is a product of the "evolved" state of society. Is that really a good thing? I somehow don't think so. Isn't it great that there's more diversity now? Interesting ..... except that there have always been gay people. Do you know about how the men were during the time of Socrates? Btw, I'm a single parent that is raising one awesome child. One good parent is better then one good and one bad parent. In some ways yeah, I just don't care for how it's promoted, like for example treating blacks different just because they are black (no disrespect intended). We should all be seen on our own merits, not because of a particular skin color or anything like that. This is true, but it doesn't make it any less right in my mind. As for the last part, I didn't mean to attack your own parenthood or anything like that. It's great you are able to raise your child well, however for as many as there are like yourself, there are also many who neglect as well. |
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Kleisto, I agree with most of your post, though you seem to have a generally disapproving attitude towards the rise of acceptance of homosexuality (and I generally approve of any couple who finds love and is good to each other). Your post raises another question for me, in the discussion of 'choice'. Consider a young person who has homosexual desires, whether influenced by genetics or otherwise. I'm saying that such a person could, in theory, come to understand their desires and shape them. But ASKING them to do so would be akin to asking a young heterosexual person to understand their desires and shape them. I say its possible in theory, but in practice, you can only take that so far! But lets take another step closer to reality: what if this young person is raised by parents who think its a 'filthy sin', and in a community who feels likewise. They don't even understand their desires to begin with, and now they are burdened by self hatred and other negative thoughts and feelings? At that point, any thought of 'reshaping' one's desires would be built on self-denial, judgement, negativity - thats is completely not what I'm talking about. I don't think anything good would come of that. What you say is just what I feel is the problem in how we view issues such as homosexuality. There is too much hate, and not enough love, and as a result very little discussion about the matter beyond right and wrong Don't get me wrong, a person ought to be told the truth on such matters, however it has to be done a certain way. When or if I ever become a father, I'd like for my kids to be able to come to me with anything on their mind, to be able to discuss things openly with me regardless of what the issue is. Once having established that, there can be more of a dialogue between myself and my kids, about the issue at hand. Does that make sense? NO offense, seriously, but what the means is that you will approach your kids with love, but then wait for the opportune time to manipulate them. No? So we aught to be told the truth? Who's truth? I agree there is too much hate but I would not replace that with manipulation either. It's not so simple, until you are faced with your child telling you that they are gay. You will either help them to come to grips with societies issues, or you will cause your own child to hide from you because he/she didn't want to go against your beliefs. People really have no clue just how complicated they have made life for some individuals, even well meaning people. You child is your child but not you property, or are they? Do they live according to your beliefs or their own conscience? |
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You child is your child but not you property, or are they? Do they live according to your beliefs or their own conscience? In a perfect world, I think it'd be a bit of both. |
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Also, beyond that there is something to be said for the way the culture promotes homosexuality, and plays up the whole tolerance thing. Look at how many people in Hollywood are either openly gay or gay but hiding it. I don't think this is by coincidence, the people who promote this lifestyle know exactly what they are doing in doing so. The more they blur they line as to what is normal and accepted, the more confused the populace will be, and the more likely they will accept the messages being put out. You see this in all kinds of aspects of sexuality, body image, when to have sex, etc. What it's resulted in, is the downfall of morals, values and the overall family unit, which was the whole idea behind all this from the start. Wow, who 'aren't' you insulting in this post? Of course it couldn't be that human beings are recognizing the diversity in this universe and or that they are evolving beyond the thinking of the 12th century? Nope there just stupid gullible people being duped by those scheming gays... ugh The reason for a lot of this diversity though is coming from what we are being taught, both in schools and in the media. They've been trying to reshape our minds in a million different ways over time, from what we eat and drink, to what we wear and how we view each other. As one could see if they look at the world now, it's been working. I might add that, all this evolving you speak of, has it really been all that helpful to us as a nation and world? Look at the number of broken homes, single parents, divorces, etc. All this is a product of the "evolved" state of society. Is that really a good thing? I somehow don't think so. I was shaped by a christian focused family. Thankfully I wasn't so easily shaped or convinced or indoctrinated or swayed by the tactics of the church to conform. You believe we are being reshaped into something negative. I believe society is fighting the brain washing of my generation and those before mine. You see the world as going to hell, I see the world as trying to over come the hell they have created for others. I actually see it the other way around, if anything I think society now is more brainwashed then they ever were before. The general populace thinks everything the media says is truth, and if it doesn't come from a "legit" source, they're wrong or biased. Here's the problem with that, the other side thinks people are brainwashed by the christian right, something that has gone on forever. Either way everybody thinks everyone else is brainwashed. I can tell you honestly that I am not brainwashed, I did not fall for the religious indoctrination and I don't fall for what the media has to say. But I am a person who believes in live and let live. I don't pretend to believe in god nor do I pretend to know the mind of god if one does exist. |
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