I dont believe the bible either...and the book is about something quite
different

they were building a rocket ship to escape the earth before all the nuks
started going off.they didnt make it they had turned their land into a
desert and spread em selves all over the place and kept making deserts
were ever they went just like it is now.only problem now we can make
deserts heaps quicker we are idiots.

no soreity you are right i think it took place in book of judges didn't
it

wow i was way off but you're right

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all
one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be
restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

Many people have suggested that this story clearly states that we are
imagining life. Individually our imaginations are limited by what other
people imagine. In other words, an individual person can’t go out and
imagine to move a mountain and have it happen, because everyone else is
imagining that the mountain is immovable.

However, if everyone imagines that the mountain can move, then it will
move.

The idea here is that if everyone was imagining building a tower to
heaven then collectively they would necessarily succeed. So god had to
intervene to prevent the people from succeeding in imagining to do this.

Personally I don’t believe that the Bible is the word of god. Therefore
I am not bothered by this because I see it as having been written by an
individual philosopher. I don’t believe that there was ever a time
when all of the people on earth collectively set out to achieve a single
goal. Wouldn’t that have been a first for humanity?

Secondly, I don’t believe that our imaginations are what control
reality. If that were the case then when doing science why would only
certain people be ‘correct’. I mean, if our imaginations were running
reality then whomever thought up an idea first and popularized it that
idea would become reality.

For example, the vast majority of people believed that the earth was
flat at one time. Why then would we eventually discover that it’s a
sphere?

At one time people believed that humans began as fully-formed miniature
humans called a homunculus that was entirely created by a man and then
merely passed on to a woman for incubation. The woman contributed
nothing to the offspring. Since that Idea was imagined first, then why
did we finally discover genetics and DNA?

At one time people believe that the stars were pinholes in the firmament
of heaven letting light shine in from the heaven behind. But then later
we discovered that the stars are other suns like our. There are just
too many examples were popular imaginings just didn’t pan out and were
eventually replaced with other ideas that were based on experimental
investigation.

So the idea that we are merely imagining life just doesn’t seem to hold
water very well. It certainly appears that there is an objective ‘out
there’ out there.

The same thing goes with the universe itself, at one time out Milky way
galaxy was believed to be the entire universe. Then we realized that
there are billions upon billions of other galaxies. At one time people
thought that the universe had always existed and was in a steady state.
But then we discovered that it came into being about 15 billion years
ago and is expanding.

There just isn’t much to be said for imagination being the driving force
of reality. We can, and have, imagined a lot of things collectively in
large groups yet it turned out that they weren’t true.

I’d be interested in hearing what Spider’s view is on Gen 11:6

It clearly states that god said, “and now nothing will be restrained
from them, which they have imagined to do” Why would god say such a
thing if it isn’t true?

Abracadabra
it wasnt about them actually building the tower! it was about their sin
of going against God.

Spidercmb

thank you. your answer was good too. yours is actually the same way
someone else said it in a bible study a couple weeks ago.

bellameetsbeau wrote:
"Abracadabra
it wasnt about them actually building the tower! it was about their sin
of going against God."

I'm just going by what’s written in the bible that god said. God didn't
say that he disperse them to punish them. God said, “Behold, the people
is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and
now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to
do”

In fact, the idea of punishment isn’t even suggested anywhere in Gen 11.
Where are you coming up with the idea that it was for punishment? I
just don’t see it.

Genesis 11:5
--------------------------------------------------------------
The LORD came down to see the city and the tower which the sons of men
had built.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Get it? They thought the tower was so great, but God is saying "Here
the heck is this tower again?" and starts looking around for it.

Genesis 11:6
--------------------------------------------------------------
The LORD said, "Behold, they are one people, and they all have the same
language. And this is what they began to do, and now nothing which they
purpose to do will be impossible for them.
--------------------------------------------------------------

Where is says "And this is what they began", the word for begin is
"chalal", which indicates starting something profane, vile or evil.
What's being said is "If they will do something profane, there is no
evil thing they won't do."

If that is the case why then does it not say so.

once again I say not one jot nor tittle.

Big diference between 'begin' and 'starting something profane'.

Spider wrote:
“Where is says ‘And this is what they began’, the word for begin is
‘chalal’, which indicates starting something profane, vile or evil.
What's being said is ‘If they will do something profane, there is no
evil thing they won't do’.”

AB wrote:
“If that is the case why then does it not say so.”

I have to agree with AB, Spider. What good will it do anyone to read
the Bible if they need Spider to interpret for them?

Are you saying that it was a poor translation?

It seems to me that if it’s THAT open to translation then anyone can
claim it to mean anything.

Why would god inspire a book that everyone translates differently?

Doesn’t seem to be of much use. And if God is all-knowing, surely he
too would have been aware of this.

It just appears to me that you just shrug off anything that you don’t
like, and reinterpret it into something that fits your own personal
agenda.

Any book is that open to interpretation it’s virtually meaningless.

Also, why would building a tower to heaven be considered vile or evil?
Seems to be that would be the greatest of all tributes to a God. The
people are showing that they want to be close to god. Why should god
view that as being evil?

My interpretation of the story is entirely differnet.

The story was written by spiritualists in response to questions from
their tribes. The spiritualists were trying to get people to believe in
a god. And the people had already heard the story of Adam and Eve, etc.
But in the real world they noticed that different tribes had different
languages. So they would confront their spiritual leaders and ask, “If
god created Adam and Eve and they populated the world, then why is it
that today different people speak differnet languages?"

So the spiritualists made up the story of the tower of Babel to explain
how mankind now all speak with differnet tongues.

That makes perfect sense to me. I can easily see spiritualists making
up these stories to restore a faith in their god and the religion which
they used to keep social order in their tribes.

So I already have my interpretation and it makes perfect sense to me.

AdventureBegins and Abra,

Because you interpret the words and Christians interpret the spirit.
That is why you two and anyone else who isn't saved are not qualified to
interpret scriptures. You must have received the Holy Spirit to
understand those things which are of the spirit.

The passage you should read is Genesis 11:1-9. I suggest the translation
called 'The Message' but any translation is perfectly suitbale.

The Tower of Babel has nothing to do with punishment. God merely
observes that without political or larguage barriers, then barely any
tasks will be impossible for human kind to accomplish via working
together. Apparently, God did not want this to be the case, so he
miraculously arranged for men to be spread out to different countries
and speak different languages. Thus, the processes of working together,
overcoming differences, and working to get past language barriers
entered life.

I am a Christian, and I happen to believe that these events actually
happened. However, I see no problem in believing that this is merely a
story told to describe God's character.

In either case, a bit of God's character is revealed. He has a priority
to arrange the world such that we have difficulty in working together.
Hence, in order to work together, we have to learn to overcome
differences and be respectful: a perfectly legitimate lesson if you ask
me.

Now, obviously many of you don't believe this story, and I respect that.
But its purpose is only to explain where the idea of different languages
came from. God, upon seeing that humanity had only just reached a level
of cooperation that would have led to a civilization that was
dangerously homogeneous (uniform), decided to act so that humans could
grow in character by living in a world where tolerance, respect, and
cooperation were necessary.

That's my interpretation, and it makes perfect sense to me. Other
interpretations may make sense to you, and everyone should read the
passage for themselves and decide on which interpretation is best for
them.

In that sense, every piece of literature that has ever been written must
be interpreted. You could equally ask: "What's the point of the
constitution if the Supreme Court has to interpret it for us?" What is
the point of Feynman's Lectures on Physics if they have to be
interpreted? Everything, even science, has to be interpreted. And in
each case, you simply try to make an argument for why your
interpretation is correct. Or else, upon recognizing incorrect parts of
your own interpretation, you seek to find some interpretation that is
correct.

So please stop ragging on the Bible for needing to be interpreted. Every
piece of literature has to be interpreted.

Spider wrote:
"Because you interpret the words and Christians interpret the spirit."

When you interpret the spirit directly you don't need a book.

Abracadabra,

No, there is a name for that: Schizophrenia. If you saught to find God,
you would, but because you have convinced yourself that you have found
Him, you won't.

I breath therefor does that-which-is breath through me.

As I breath the spirit wafts through me for He breathed it into me as I
was born.

In what way do I not have the holy spirit?

It is in all things as it comes from god which is all things.

I would ask you what was gods first commandment? Search your books well
it may not be what you think it is.

Ely wrote:
" So please stop ragging on the Bible for needing to be interpreted."

When people post their belief that the Bible was written by men, that is
not ‘ragging’ on the Bible. It’s a personal belief.

I am thoroughly convinced that the Bible is a book that was written by
religious leaders who had specific agendas.

This is my belief.

It’s not ‘ragging’ on anything.

After all, if that were the case, then when you claim that the Bible is
the word of God then you are ‘ragging’ on my belief.

Don’t you people get it?

People are entitled to their own beliefs. And if someone believes that
the Bible was written by men with an agenda that that’s their belief.

It’s not ‘ragging’ on anyone. It’s sharing a view. Period amen.

I get sick of people telling me that my view is ‘ragging’ on their view.

Please stop that nonsense! My view is my view and it’s a perfectly
valid view. I don’t post my views to ‘rag’ on anyone. It’s what I
believe. Get it?

AdventureBegins,

Genesis 2:17
-------------------------------------------------------------
but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat,
for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die."
-------------------------------------------------------------

Romans 6:23(A)
-------------------------------------------------------------
For the wages of sin is death
-------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone is dead spiritually, because of the fall of Adam and Eve.

Romans 6:23(B)
-------------------------------------------------------------
but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
-------------------------------------------------------------

John 7:38-39
-------------------------------------------------------------
He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, 'From his innermost being
will flow rivers of living water.' But this He spoke of the Spirit,
whom those who believed in Him were to receive; for the Spirit was not
yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
-------------------------------------------------------------

Romans 8:10
-------------------------------------------------------------
If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the
spirit is alive because of righteousness.
-------------------------------------------------------------

We gain eternal life and the Holy Spirit through accepting Jesus as our
Lord and savior.

Wow!

You reached farther back than I thought you would. Very good.

Try this.

'Be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth'

Genesis 1-28. On the sixth day First commandment of God to mankind
(Male and Female).

We are failing to uphold this commandment. We have multiplied but we
are not replenishing the earth we are plundering it.

Spider wrote:
" No, there is a name for that: Schizophrenia. If you saught to find
God, you would, but because you have convinced yourself that you have
found Him, you won't.."

And who, pray tell, are you to tell me whether or not I have found god?

Did I say anything about whether or not you have found god?

No I haven’t. I’ve merely stated that I don’t personally believe that
the Bible is the word of God. But you can’t seem to accept that this
is my view without suggesting that I am schizophrenic and lost.

Personally I don’t care what you think. But I think that you are
clearly showing that you are not open to hearing other people’s views on
things.

Are you here merely to preach to others? Have you adopted this forum
as your own personal church?

I don’t believe that this is the purpose of these forums. I believe
that the purpose of these forums are for sharing our beliefs with each
other. Not for calling each other names for not accepting our own
personal brand of dogma.

So Spider, are you here to share your ideas and hear the ideas of
others, or are you here just to use the JSH forums as your own personal
church to preach your specific brand of dogma from?