2 Next
Topic: Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes
yellowrose10's photo
Thu 04/16/09 11:41 PM
they can teach that there isn't a god. plain and simple...but i included other religious beliefs as well.

and they did help...just added to what they believe. the people can call BS on it if they want to

no photo
Thu 04/16/09 11:46 PM
Edited by boo2u on Thu 04/16/09 11:48 PM

they can teach that there isn't a god. plain and simple...but i included other religious beliefs as well.

and they did help...just added to what they believe. the people can call BS on it if they want to


You still don't get what I am saying to you. But first, if I were and atheist, why would i have any need to go to a people that need help and tell them there is no god? I wouldn't need to discuss any of that unless they asked me if I believed in their gods or a god, and then it would simply be a discussion not an expectation that they would give up their thing for my thing. I am there to help them not force them to believe something.

Other religious beliefs I can't say what they do, but if they do what christians do then I would say the same.

MirrorMirror's photo
Fri 04/17/09 10:49 AM

This is going on my must read list.

I thought I would pass it along to you all.


By Lynn Harnett
April 12, 2009 6:00 AM

Don't Sleep, There Are Snakes: Life and Language in the Amazonian Jungle
Daniel L. Everett
Pantheon


The Pirahã are the "Show me!" tribe of the Brazilian Amazon. They don't bother with fiction or tall tales or even oral history. They have little art. They don't have a creation myth and don't want one. If they can't see it, hear it, touch it or taste it, they don't believe in it.

Missionaries have been preaching to the Pirahãs for 200 years and have converted not one. Everett did not know this when he first visited them in 1977 at age 26. A missionary and a linguist, he was sent to learn their language, translate the Bible for them, and ultimately bring them to Christ.

Instead, they brought him to atheism. "The Pirahãs have shown me that there is dignity and deep satisfaction in facing life and death without the comfort of heaven or the fear of hell and in sailing toward the great abyss with a smile."

Not that they have escaped religion entirely. Spirits live everywhere and may even caution or lecture them at times. But these spirits are visible to the Pirahãs, if not to Everett and his family, who spent 30 years, on and off, living with the tribe.

But they don't have marriage or funeral ceremonies. Cohabitation suffices as the wedding announcement and divorce is accomplished just as simply, though there may be more noise involved. Sexual mores are governed by common sense rather than stricture, which means that single people have sex at will while married people are more circumspect.

People are sometimes buried with their possessions, which are few, and larger people are often buried sitting "because this requires less digging." But there is no ritual for each family to follow.

"Perhaps the activity closest to ritual among the Pirahãs is their dancing. Dances bring the village together. They are often marked by promiscuity, fun, laughing, and merriment by the entire village. There are no musical instruments involved, only singing, clapping, and stomping of feet."

Everett's language studies began without benefit of dictionary or primer. None of the Pirahãs spoke any English or more than the most rudimentary Portuguese. (Among their many eccentricities is their total lack of interest in any facet of any other culture including tools or language — not that they won't use tools, like canoes, they just won't make them or absorb them into their culture.)

Amazingly, "Pirahã is not known to be related to any other living human language."

At first it seems rather deprived. There are only 11 phonemes (speech sounds). There are no numbers, no words for colors. No words for please, thank you or sorry. There are, however, tones, whistles and clicks. And the language comes in three forms — regular plus Humming speech and Yelling speech.

Over the years, Everett comes to the conclusion that the Pirahã language reflects and arises from their culture in its directness, immediacy and simplicity. Ultimately he defies Noam Chomsky's theory of Universal Grammar (Pirahã lacks a basic requirement) and starts a firestorm in the linguistics field. Everett alludes mildly to this in the book, but a little Internet browsing will leave readers shocked — shocked! — at the way linguists talk to one another.

There are plenty of anecdotes involving the reader in Everett's adventures, hardships, terrors, epiphanies and the pure strangeness of daily life with a people who live in the immediate present and whose most common "good night" is "Don't sleep, there are snakes." (sound sleep is dangerous and, besides, toughening themselves is a strong cultural value — foodless days are also common).

Fascinating as both anthropological memoir and linguistic study, Everett's book will appeal to those interested in very not-North American cultures and in the ways people shape language and it shapes us.

It's a book that rouses a sense of wonder and gives rise to even more questions than it answers.

Lynn Harnett, of Kittery, Maine, writes book reviews for Seacoast Sunday. She can be reached at lynnharnett@gmail.com.
flowerforyou coolbigsmile

Lynann's photo
Fri 04/17/09 10:53 AM
Oh yeah...missionaries are swell...


Winx's photo
Fri 04/17/09 10:58 AM
I'd like to read that book and learn more about their culture.

DaveyB's photo
Fri 04/17/09 11:14 AM
Edited by DaveyB on Fri 04/17/09 11:16 AM



Well I think if your spending time and money to help a poor people to learn to grow things etc, that's fine. But to convert them to something they never needed to survive and be happy is another. I think it borders on unethical. Who are they to decide what is right and wrong for others?


They are not deciding for them, it's not even like they are saying believe as I do or I won't help you. If they did that I too would have a little problem. But all they are doing is telling people what they believe and attempting to convince them they are right. Those they help always have the option of not believing them, it is their choice. They don't have to except the help either.

no photo
Fri 04/17/09 01:41 PM




Well I think if your spending time and money to help a poor people to learn to grow things etc, that's fine. But to convert them to something they never needed to survive and be happy is another. I think it borders on unethical. Who are they to decide what is right and wrong for others?


They are not deciding for them, it's not even like they are saying believe as I do or I won't help you. If they did that I too would have a little problem. But all they are doing is telling people what they believe and attempting to convince them they are right. Those they help always have the option of not believing them, it is their choice. They don't have to except the help either.


Attempting to convince is the same thing in my book...

Here is some interesting reading: for me at least..

Controversy and Christian missionaries

Objections to missionary work among isolated indigenous populations have been raised by governments, anthropologists and spiritual leaders, claiming consequences such as cultural assimilation, reduction of native language speakers, and loss of native culture. Christian missionaries have been criticised for a general lack of respect for native cultures, and even actively working to undermine the religious customs and beliefs of many non-Christian countries. This has been called Ethnocide, Cultural genocide and Cultural Imperialism.

The Christian missionary mindset is generally depicted as that of simple religious folk with a pure desire to peacefully spread their gospel and message of love. In reality, their methods of propagation are often anything but peaceful and usually leave behind a native population stripped of their culture and often decimated.... In the words of one resident of Thailand, "They [Christian missionaries] seemed that they did not show any interest for our culture. Why? They are just eager to build big churches in every village. It seems that they are having two faces; under the title of help they suppress us. To the world, they gained their reputations as benefactors of disappearing tribes. They built their reputations on us for many years. The way they behaved with us seemed as if we did not know about god before they arrived here. Why do missionaries think they are the only ones who can perceive God?"[2]

According to Mahatma Gandhi:

“ "This proselytization will mean no peace in the world. Conversions are harmful to India. If I had the power and could legislate I should certainly stop all proselytizing ... It pains me to have to say that the Christian missionaries as a body, with honorable exceptions, have actively supported a system which has impoverished, enervated and demoralized a people considered to be among the gentlest and most civilized on earth"[3]. ”

In India, Hindu organisations such as the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh assert that most conversions undertaken by zealous evangelicals occur due to compulsion, inducement or fraud.[4]. In the Indian state of Tripura, the government has alleged financial and weapons-smuggling connections between Baptist missionaries and rebel groups such as the National Liberation Front of Tripura.[5] The accused Tripura Baptist Christian Union is a member body of the Baptist World Alliance. [6]

Says an editorial in the periodical, Christian Century:

The American Baptist Churches/USA not only maintains close relations with the 2 million tribal population, but it even encourages the converts there 'to battle with India for their cultural and religious survival.' This is tantamount to urging the Nagas to view India as another country that is oppressing them. In his article 'Abuses in Nagaland' (Christian Century, July 15, 1998) the executive director of the ABC's international ministries, John Sundquist, even states that Nagas are a vital Christian nation facing severe pressure from the Indian government. [7].

The Vatican, of late, is taking a somewhat different view toward proselytizing.

"In mid-May, the Vatican was also co-sponsoring a meeting about how some religious groups abuse liberties by proselytizing, or by evangelizing in aggressive or deceptive ways. Iraq ... has become an open field for foreigners looking for fresh converts. Some Catholic Church leaders and aid organizations have expressed concern about new Christian groups coming in and luring Iraqis to their churches with offers of cash, clothing, food or jobs.... Reports of aggressive proselytism and reportedly forced conversions in mostly Hindu India have fueled religious tensions and violence there and have prompted some regional governments to pass laws banning proselytism or religious conversion.... Sadhvi Vrnda Chaitanya, a Hindu monk from southern India, told CNS that India's poor and uneducated are especially vulnerable to coercive or deceptive methods of evangelization.... Aid work must not hide any ulterior motives and avoid exploiting vulnerable people like children and the disabled, she said."[8]

In an interview with Outlook Magazine, Sadhvi Vrnda Chaitanya said "If the Vatican could understand that every religious and spiritual tradition is as sacred as Christianity, and that they have a right to exist without being denigrated or extinguished, it will greatly serve the interests of dialogue, mutual respect, and peaceful coexistence."[9]

The meeting of religious leaders from the Christian, Buddhist, Hindu, Islam, Judaism and Yoruba faiths resulted in an agreement on ten points about proseltyzation, notably that if done, it be with respect for other cultures[10]

The fictional movie The Mosquito Coast with Harrison Ford depicts this missionary mindset and the damage some feel it can wreak upon native peoples. Another movie, The Journals of Knud Rasmussen, which is factually based, tells of similar destruction brought upon the Inuit culture by missionaries. See also Siqqitiq and these reference works on the subject. See also [11]


Aid and Evangelism

Another source of conflict regarding missionaries in the third world is the charge that the aid that comes in response to various world disasters comes with a condition: that assistance requires conversion. The phenomenon is quite old and Christians who convert due to material needs used to be known as rice Christians.

While there is a general agreement among most major aid organizations not to mix aid with proseltyzing, others see disasters as a useful opportunity to spread the word. Innovative Minds, a Muslim software company "specialising in the application of internet and multimedia technology for promoting a better understanding of Islam in the west" has written a report[12] about just such an occurrence, the tidal wave (tsunami) that devastated parts of Asia on December 26, 2004.

"This (disaster) is one of the greatest opportunities God has given us to share his love with people," said K.P. Yohannan, president of the Texas-based Gospel for Asia. In an interview, Yohannan said his 14,500 "native missionaries" in India, Sri Lanka and the Andaman Islands are giving survivors Bibles and booklets about "how to find hope in this time through the word of God." In Krabi, Thailand, a Southern Baptist church had been "praying for a way to make inroads" with a particular ethnic group of fishermen, according to Southern Baptist relief coordinator Pat Julian. Then came the tsunami, "a phenomenal opportunity" to provide ministry and care, Julian told the Baptist Press news service.... Not all evangelicals agree with these tactics. "It's not appropriate in a crisis like this to take advantage of people who are hurting and suffering," said the Rev. Franklin Graham, head of Samaritan's Purse and son of evangelist Billy Graham.".[13]
See also A Dangerous mix: Religion & Development Aid.
The Christian Science Monitor echoes these concerns... "'I think evangelists do this out of the best intentions, but there is a responsibility to try to understand other faith groups and their culture,' says Vince Isner, director of FaithfulAmerica.org, a program of the National Council of Churches USA".[14]

The Bush administration has in fact recently made it easier for U.S. faith based groups and missionary societies to tie aid and church together.

For decades, US policy has sought to avoid intermingling government programs and religious proselytizing. The aim is both to abide by the Constitution's prohibition against a state religion and to ensure that aid recipients don't forgo assistance because they don't share the religion of the provider.... But many of those restrictions were removed by Bush in a little-noticed series of executive orders -- a policy change that cleared the way for religious groups to obtain hundreds of millions of dollars in additional government funding. It also helped change the message American aid workers bring to many corners of the world, from emphasizing religious neutrality to touting the healing powers of the Christian God.[15]

Christian counter-claims
Missionaries, say that the government in India has passed anti-conversion laws in several states that are supposedly meant to prevent conversions from "force or allurement", but are primarily used, they say, to persecute and criminalize voluntary conversion due to the government's broad definition of "force and allurement." Any gift received from a Christian in exchange for, or with the intention of, conversion is considered allurement. Voice of the Martyrs reports that aid-workers claim that they are being hindered from reaching people with much needed services as a result of this persecution.[16] Alan de Lastic, Roman Catholic archbishop of New Delhi states that claims of forced conversion are false[17].

"'There are attacks practically every week, maybe not resulting in death, but still, violent attacks,' Richard Howell, general secretary of the Evangelical Fellowship of India tells The Christian Science Monitor today. 'They [India's controlling BJP party] have created an atmosphere where minorities do feel insecure.'"[18] According to Prakash Louis, director of the secular Indian Social Institute in New Delhi, "We are seeing a broad attempt to stifle religious minorities and their constitutional rights...Today, they say you have no right to convert, Tomorrow you have no right to worship in certain places."[19] Existing congregations, often during times of worship, are being persecuted.[20

Article from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mission_(Christian)

Fanta46's photo
Fri 04/17/09 02:01 PM
Edited by Fanta46 on Fri 04/17/09 02:02 PM
Christianity scares the Indians. Mainly because they practice and believe in a Caste system and Christianity teaches that all people are equal.

Also IMO Ghandi was a wuss!
A contradiction in a turban!
He preached non-violence and yet suggested to the British in S Africa that Indians should be used as conscripts to fight the native Zulus!

no photo
Fri 04/17/09 08:19 PM

Christianity scares the Indians. Mainly because they practice and believe in a Caste system and Christianity teaches that all people are equal.

Christianity should scare people everywhere for that matter.

Also IMO Ghandi was a wuss!
A contradiction in a turban!
He preached non-violence and yet suggested to the British in S Africa that Indians should be used as conscripts to fight the native Zulus!


You really need to define equal...

Ghandi was least of all a wuss, few could have lived his life, and I am not saying he didn't have his faults, hell everyone does. But a wuss, no way. Nor do I like the caste system .... But christianity teaching all people are equal is?, well that's nonsense. Maybe your particular group or church ...

2 Next