FROM: http://www.biblehistory.net/newsletter/scapegoat.htm

In the Book of Leviticus chapter 16, God instructed Moses and Aaron to
select two goats every year for an offering. One was to be used as a sin
offering to atone for the sins and trans-gressions of the people. Once
killed, it’s blood was to be sprinkled on God’s mercy seat on the Ark of
the Covenant. There God would view the blood of the sin offering and
have Mercy on the people and forgive their sins.
The high priest would then lay hands on the second goat which was
allowed to live, and he would confess the sins of the people putting
them on the head of the goat. The goat would then bear the blame for all
the transgressions of the people and would be set free into the
wilderness, where God would remember their sins no more. The goat became
known as the scapegoat.
Jewish history records that it was a common practice to tie a red strip
of cloth to the scapegoat. The red stripe represented the sin of the
people which was atoned for by the red blood on the mercy seat.
According to the Jewish Talmuds this red stripe would eventually turn
white, signaling God’s acceptance of the offering.
There is an amazing reference in the Talmuds that verifies that after
Jesus was crucified, God no longer accepted the sin offering and the
scapegoat offered by the Jewish high priests. The Talmuds state:
"Forty years before the Temple was destroyed (30 A.D.) the chosen lot
was not picked with the right hand, nor did the crimson stripe turn
white, nor did the westernmost light burn; and the doors of the Temple’s
Holy Place swung open by themselves, until Rabbi Yochanon ben Zakkai
spoke saying: 'O most Holy Place, why have you become disturbed? I know
full well that your destiny will be destruction, for the prophet
Zechariah ben Iddo has already spoken regarding you saying: 'Open thy
doors, O Lebanon, that the fire may devour the cedars' (Zech. 11:1).'
Talmud Bavli, Yoma 39b

I saw Ps.118;8 you posted. The talmud is a an explanation by the elite
into the meaning of the bible or /verse. The Jews when a contravercy
came up went by the talmud/(mans thoughts) bover Torah (Yahweh's Word).I
would stay away from the Talmud as the laws christians so adhemently
refer to are talmud not Torah as being done away. remember "you prefer
the traditions of men over the word of Yahweh" Ps 118:8 is an excellent
verce just believe it. miles

Miles,

I think you should re-read what I wrote. I only mentioned the Talmud,
because of an occurance that is recorded there.

Basically, it's like this. Until the year that Jesus started his
ministry, the same miracle would happen every year. The year Jesus
started his ministry was the first year that the miracle didn't happen.
The miracle had to do with the temple accepting a sin sacrifice for
Israel. The first year of Jesus's ministry (and every year thereafter),
the temple rejected the sacrifice, the miracle no longer happened.

Actually it all makes a lot of sense in a fortuitous kind of way. I
mean, we would certainly be living life a lot differently, if animal
sacrifice were still the norm. I mean, we obviosly couldn't just go out
and buy a goat or a lamb or a dove to kill for high riturals.
Purchasing a sacrifice with the money of Ceasar would be like paying a
debt to God with American dollars. Instead we would all have to raise
our own sacrificial bounty. I don't think my homeowners association
would like that.

Spider>

Perhaps you should re-read what miles wrote. If I understood it right
he is saying that jesus did not abolish the laws of the torah. He
abolished the man made laws that sprang from mans interpretation of gods
laws... Those that are in the Talumud.

Big difference.

AdventureBegins,

Animal sacrifices (like the scape goat) were a foreshadowing of Jesus.
When Jesus started teaching God was no longer willing to accept animal
sacrifices, you had to stop following the shadow and follow the man.
That's the point of my original post. This all goes back to the angel
who told Abraham "God will provide a sacrifice" This is a post that was
directed at Christians who understand the concept of the Law as a shadow
of Jesus. I guess I should go to a Christian only forum when making
these sorts of posts.

Spider>

If you look hard enough at any book you can find a foreshadowing of
anything you wish. If you wanted you could find a foreshadowing of you
or even me.

That would not make it true only your interpretation.

Animal sacrifices were something from our ancient past. (In some places
it is still performed)

In my native desert we used to (and some of us still do) 'sacrifice' the
first portion of our water to the earth to honor the departed amoung
friends and family. Does this also foreshadow something.

AdventureBegins,

Why don't you read what I originally posted? You see, it's not a
Christian document. It is Jewish. They don't believe Jesus is the
Messiah. The fact that the temple started rejecting sacrifices at the
same time as Jesus started his ministry is just a coincidence? How
about the fact that Jesus died on the same day that the Israelites were
told to sacrifice a lamb for their sins? The restrictions that were
placed on food and drink and sabbath are described as "A MERE SHADOW OF
WHAT IS TO COME" Did you know that God told Abraham that he had to
sacrifice his son. Abraham agreed, because he loved God. This was also
a foreshadowing of Jesus.

I'm starting to notice that I quote scientific articles, the Talmud, the
Bible and offer commentary on everything I post. You just question
everything I write. I don't believe that you are being open minded at
all. I am willing to bet that if I questioned your beliefs with the
intensity that you question mine, you and at least half a dozen others
would attack me for being intolerant. Why don't you post something
other than criticizm for once?

Seriously, I'm a little annoyed that I give you guys scriptures that are
as accurate as "the Messiah will be peirced and killed by Jerusalem" and
I get rediculous resposes back. If you like it or not, the JEWS
recorded in the TALMUD that the temple stopped accepting sacrifices in
the same year that Jesus started his ministry. It's a fact. Don't
believe it? I'm sorry for that, but I don't apologize for posting it.

what important verse did he recite to start his ministry that shows the
EliYah Message?

What does that have to do with.... O say the price of tea in china.

The date jesus died?

How about the fact that Jesus died on the same day that the Israelites
were told to sacrifice a lamb for their sins?

Was that not the same day two other souls were crucified?

Are you know going to tell me that the only death on that hill that was
important was the death of christ.

what of the family of the two others. I would say to them those deaths
in that moment were important to them.

As I said if you look with the intention of finding you can find
anything you are expecting in just about anything you look for it
within. Especially when you look back. (hindsight is but one sight and
usually provides the clearity of what you put into it).

More important than hindsight is can you tell me of the return of the
renewed word of god... and be 100% accurate.

Krishna stated that there would be 3 more times that he would come. One
cooresponds to the time of Christ. One cooresponds to the time of
Momamhad. One occures after momamhad. Wonder who that was?

Spider>

I have never critized you. I have stated my humble opinion on subjects
that I think you have misread.

You knowledge of the words in the bible is astounding. The conclusions
you draw from those words I do not allways agree with.

Some of the scientific facts you post have been replaced. As an example
nova did another series on earths magnetic field. With newer data and
diferent conclusions based from the example you cited. This is one
problem with googleing things. If you are not quite carefull in what
you place in the search window you can get very old data. The net keeps
it all even outdated stuff.

I have never critized you. Never called you a lier, never said your
posts were misleading. Never told you I would cease to have discorse
with you. As you have done to me.

Please treat me with the same respect I have given you.

Spider, I was being flippant in my earlier post, I was feeling a bit
silly, sorry.

You wrote that perhaps you should be posting under a "for Christians"
topic. Or something of that nature. I suppose if all you want to do is
banter ideas within a like minded group you would be correct. I'm
sorry you have come up against so much animosity. You do have a bit of
a different overview when it comes to your faith. Any deviation from
what others see as the norm will come up against that animosity. You
state several times that you have come by you belief through a rather
unusual chain of events, all of which were powered by your need to
understand, to find the faith you would believe in.

Often, in many of these posts it is stated time and again how much
respect poeple have for someone who has researched and decided for
themselves what to believe. Just as often I see you ridiculed for
haveing done this. Just because you have studied and researched those
things, only, that support your faith does not mean you have not put
forth a huge effort.

I respect the knowledge you have gained in your OWN studies, and the
fact that you took the time to find what is right for you, the knowledge
pertaining to language and all that you have read within the catagory of
Jewish, & Christian law.

There is a vast amount of knowledger here too, some of which relates to
historical data, to archeological finings and other religions. To post
within the confines of only believers, we all stand to loose some
perspective.

Now, let me ask a serious question. Since you have so much background,
perhaps you can explain this. In this post you refer to several
passages that "forshadow" things to come. In the Lutheran faith, we
were taught this also, though I didn't or don't remember all the
examples.

So why is it, that the Jews, all the Hebrews refused to accept Jesus as
the Messiah? My understanding, from years ago in that little Lutheran
church, was that they expected a Wordly King, not a philosopher, not one
of the flock.

I believe in another post there was some issue with this. Jeses was
crowned a king, by Christian view, not in his own time.

So the question, why did all Jews not become Christian?

Redykeulous,

That's a great question! Jesus's ministry was almost entirely dedicated
to showing the Jews that they had made God's spiritual laws into earthly
laws. Jews accepted that adultry was wrong, but Jesus taught that lust
was adultry. The Jews accepted that murder was wrong, but Jesus
explained that hate is murder. The 613 Jewish commandments are all
intended to teach spiritual truth. For instance, there is one
comamndment that requires that anyone who has a field leave the corners
unharvested, so that anyone who is hungry can eat the food growing
there. This particular commandment was intended to teach the Jews
charity, but they made it into a purely earthly law that only applied to
farmer. Couldn't we all leave the corners of our fields unharvested?
Couldn't a seamstress make / repair clothing for the homeless free of
charge? Couldn't someone who works with computers help their friends,
neighbors, charities and churches free of charge? You get the point,
the field is anywhere you work. Leaving the corners unharvested means
to offer a litle bit of your work to people who need your help, but
can't afford it.

The purpose of the law was to break you. You should look at the law and
say "I can't live my life this way" It should break your spirit and
humble you. It is when you are broken that you will turn to God for
salvation. Only if you are broken will you admit that you aren't good
enough to deserve salavation.

The Jews had used their literal understanding of the law to find loop
holes, so that they could live their life by the law with the least
possible inconvienence. When Jesus taught a deeper spiritual meaning to
the laws, the Israelites largely rejected that idea. Some of the
apostels focused their ministry on saving the Jews, but the most
successful ministry was that which addressed the Gentiles. They had no
law they could hide behind. When they were conforted with God's truth,
they had little choice but to face it head on and find themselves
lacking in their own hearts.

Ah, yes, I do remember some of that. And it makes a lot of sense. It
clearly shows why Jeses was considered criminal, by especially those who
taught Jewish law.

In the context of your explanation, I can also see why there would be a
division within the 'Christian' followers, so early on. For those who
became Gnostic saw a purer design in the faith than those who clung to
their Jewish heritage and created a religion more in touch with the
ritual and the laws to which they were accustomed.

Your explanation sheds light in several areas. Thanks!

Redykeulous,

You seem to have a love/hate relationship with Christianity. Sometimes
you are very polite and then you attack Christianity by saying something
like "Gnostic saw a purer design in the faith than those who clung to
their Jewish heritage". So the Gnostics adding their own spin to
Christianity somehow made Christianity more pure? Wouldn't the source
(the Torah and the teachings of Jesus), be the "pure design"?

You were in a Christian church at one time and you probably had some bad
experiances. Let me tell you, Christianity isn't about religion.
Religion came from the fact that Christians are supposed to gather with
other followers. Paul's ministry was composed of many seperate churches
all united by their love of Jesus. Christianity is a way of life, a
relationship with Jesus, you don't have to belong to a denomentation to
follow Christ.

In my religion I believe that the symbol for the goat witch is satain
is for a reason. To help people see that people really use satain as
thier scapegoat for thier wrong actions.
(I know this is a lame example but "the devil made me do it")
LOL

netuserlla,

Christianity teaches that the seeds of every sin are in our own hearts.
We tempt ourselves and are responsible for our own sins. Satan only
takes an interest in those people who need his attention. If you are
already living in sin, Satan can kick back and watch you destroy
yourself.

Sin is in the hearts of men.
We create our sin. We have no need for satain. The evil dewells in all
of us. We are evil. God is all good, pure love. I believe that satin
only exist because he is the collective being of all of our evils that
we created to have a scapegoat.
Hell does not exist either. God could not do that to His children. If
anyone believes that they need hell as a motivator to do what's right,
then more power to them. They need it.
But I believe that when people really see the truth about God's true
love, they will see that there is no need for hell.

The seeds of love are also within our own hearts. Breath with the
breath of the spirit of god and the gifts he has givin us will light our
way upon the path to our salvation.

Live with that love in your hearts and the twin lamps of faith and hope
will allways be your guide.

Sin can not live where the spirit of god dwells.