Not sure what SpiderCmb's true intent was on the original thread, but,
here's my thoughts which should be contradictory to my usual content &
themes.

Evolution is a demonstrable, and predictable reality. You can see the
adaptation of species to a changing environment directly. Its a useful
and workable theory that can be employed (like selective breeding).

Now, I will throw in that the concept of dinosaurs "evolving" through
millions of years into apes...into humans is only a theory. There is no
measurable, demonstrable history of observation to this. There cant be -
no objective evidence can exist for "pre-human" times - nobody was there
to record it. So we theorize on the Origin of Species, and we can
reverse apply Evolution, as a theory, to make sense of the fossil
record.

Its the 'reverse application of evolution' that is the 'theory' aspect.
It's a useful manner of explaining some data, but, its not absolute. It
will always remain "theoretical" in the same bucket of "wishful science"
like Black-Hole-Time-Travel.

If you are the type of person who takes offense at the idea that humans
are descended from Apes, take heart, the "Theory of Evolution" doesnt
'prove' anything. It takes just as much faith to accept a religious
decree of humanitie's origins as it does to accept a new-age theory of
millions of years of biolgical filtering.

Still, the 'theory of evolution' is very real, and it has real
application in our daily lives.

-Mike

Nicely stated.

Wench

Mike,

You can see micro evolution, not macro evolution. There has never been
a speciation event observed by science. This is where one species
becomes another. It is common for Darwinists to claim that is has
happened and point to evening primrose, but that is disengenuous. What
happened with primrose is called "polyploidy", which is simply a problem
that is caused during reproduction.

I am happy that you mentioned that Evolution is disprovable, but there
is one fact that most people overlook. Scientific theories obey the
scientific method. The scientific method requires that a theory must
fit the following criteria: Observation, Description, Prediction,
Control, Falsifiability and Causal explanation. Since Evolution fits
none of the criteria, it is not a scientific theory. In defense of the
theory of Evolution, there is no way to prove or disprove any theory of
biological origins or origins of the species, religious or scientific.
But make no mistake, beleiving in evolution requires as much or more
faith than beleiving in religion.

I make no mistake.

Believing in creation alone without evolution requires only faith.

Beleiving in both (created evolution) makes sense and fits my faith.

May peace radiate from you.

If evolution is just a theory - where did the bones come from that have
been found?

Differentkindofwench wrote:

If evolution is just a theory - where did the bones come from that have
been found?

=======================================================================================
SpiderCMB replied:

Fossils are formed through catastrophic events, like Noah's flood or any
other flood. The body must be quickly and completely submerged under
thick layers of mud in order for the body to be fossilized. Otherwise,
the body just rots away. There must also be water to carry minerals
that will replace the bones and form the fossils.

Differentkindofwench wrote:

If evolution is just a theory - where did the bones come from that have
been found?

=======================================================================================
SpiderCMB replied:

Fossils are formed through catastrophic events, like Noah's flood or any
other flood. The body must be quickly and completely submerged under
thick layers of mud in order for the body to be fossilized. Otherwise,
the body just rots away. There must also be water to carry minerals
that will replace the bones and form the fossils.

Bones are not allways found in fossils. Sometimes they are found
incased in ice. Sometimes as intact or nearly intact bones in desert
regions. (deserts have a tendancy to preserve rather than decay)

Sorry about the double post. I am going to add some new information, so
that this isn't a triple post.

Belief in creation vs evolution isn't a salvation issue for Christians.
Because of this, I don't usually argue creation vs evolution, even
though I believe in creationism. I think it is a distraction from the
real message of the Gospel. I only brought up evolution, because I
wanted to get the attention and criticism of a couple other members of
this forum. So I would be perfectly happy to see this discussion die,
because the various camps (Darwinists, Creationist, evolutionary
creationists, etc) will never agree.

Spidercmb wrote:

"Belief in creation vs evolution isn't a salvation issue for Christians.
Because of this, I don't usually argue creation vs evolution, even
though I believe in creationism. I think it is a distraction from the
real message of the Gospel. I only brought up evolution, because I
wanted to get the attention and criticism of a couple other members of
this forum. So I would be perfectly happy to see this discussion die,
because the various camps (Darwinists, Creationist, evolutionary
creationists, etc) will never agree. "

An admirable concession, were it not for the fact that you posted a
troll to start this whole discussion, and are now taking a powder when
confronted with Biblical inerrancy issues you seem loathe to discuss.

One could point out that your religion itself has gone evolutionary
changes over time. Christianity has, for much of its two millenia,
supported, affirmed or turned a blind eye to human bondage in the form
of slavery. Today, that belief is repugnant to most people.


Just recently, when a group of Christian fundamentalists got control of
a local school board, Creationism was supplanted by a dodge into
Intelligent Design. It's proponents made some of the same arguments you
have made here, but in the end, what was hyped to be The Scopes Monkey
Trial II, ended up with a rejection of their arguments by a federal
court and the expulsion of the more radical folks from that school board
by the voters (who unwittingly footed the bill for this).

If scientists need their feet held to the fire for the fact that
evolution is "only" a theory, it's only fair that that the favor be
returned to Creationists seeking to left-handedly indoctrinate people by
dismissing things that run counter to their beliefs as 'stupid'.


-Kerry O.

Kerry O,

Have you read the thread? Do you understand how fossils are formed?
They are only formed through catastrophic events, like floods. I am not
running and even though you are just saying "Yer yeller!", I will debate
the issue. In the end, you and I will still disagree. We will probably
think less of each other. We will probably get angry at each other.
People who read what we type will decide that we are just out to argue
and so ignore us. This won't be the first time I have debated evolution
vs creationism and I don't think it's going to go the way you think, so
by all means, let's debate.

To the contrary, Spider. I know *exactly* how the 'debate' is going to
turn out. Because, you see, I'm not going to be drawn into a pissing
match with someone with a chip on their shoulder who needs to 'win' a
debate by posting broadside attacks like 'Evolution is Stupid' and who
will eventually declare victory by saying 'the Bible says so!'

It's not the sort of behaviour I tolerate in leisure debate partners.
Might I suggest you Google up "Ayn Rand Argument from Intimidation Goon
Squad".

HTH.

-Kerry O.

KerryO,

Since you haven't bothered to read the thread titled "Evolution is
stupid", I'm sure you don't realize that I support the idea of
micro-evolution. And please don't act like you didn't call me out by
attacking my reasons for saying I would rather not discuss the issue. I
didn't want to fight about the issue, because it isn't important to
salvation, it's as simple as that. But I will not lose an honest debate
on evolution, because the theory of macro-evolution is disprovable by
just looking at the criteria for a scientific theory.

Spider>

IMHO While evolution is a theory that is unproven it has never been
disproven either.

If you apply the same criteria (that of th scientific method)
creationism can not be proven by the scientific method either.

If you apply that logic then neither may be used as a valid hypotheses.

to continue it further religion itself can not bear the scrunty of
scientific method.

Peace be upon you and that which you hold dear.

AdventureBegins,

You are right, Christianity cannot be proven or disproven using the
scientific method. Christianity a religion, so it is not taught in
science classes. Macro-evolution cannot be proven or disproven, so why
is it taught in science classes? Macro-evolution is faith-based, the
science just isn't there. I can respect faith, it's a wonderful thing,
but I have a problem with someone claiming that science supports their
position, while there is no science to be found.

If you look up a couple posts, I was pretty clear that I don't want to
debate the issue. I think someone can beleive in macro-evolution and be
a Christian, it's not something that can be turned into a doctrine. To
me, the Bible is clear that God created all the animals, to another it
is clear that the animals evolved. I don't see a reason to debate,
there is no way for either person to prove that they are right. I only
posted again, because KerryO seemed to feel that I was disengenuous with
my reason for backing out of the debate.

My bad kind sir,

I was under the impression that to post in a public forum was to invite
public debate about that post.

If you do not wish to debate... Why post?

AdventureBegins,

If you want to debate, let's debate. I figured everyone would be sick
of this debate. I'm an a-hole, so I'll debate just about anything,
let's do it.

It matters not to me.

Just meant that if there is a subject that I do not wish to debate upon
I do not post within that subject.

Especially within these public forums. Ya never know what someone will
post next.

And of course the moment you, I , or anyone else posts someone will post
a disenting opinion. There are as many opinions as there are humans.

One very good thing about the forums is the lack of a defined box.
Kinda hard to stay within a box when so many people either see outside
of it or live outside of it.

no reason to be an ahole to anyone if u must then so be it but dont be
suprised when it comes back to you if you cant handle it dont start it.

hope we could at least be adults with peacefull talks an opinions