was listening to a talk interview on the net when this interesting
notion was spelled out...it you take Iraqi casualties in actions
from Bush 1 thru Clinton sanctions thru Bush 2 you would have this
perspective percentage wise...

If the same thing were to happen in America that would mean that
in the span of approx 13 yrs
30 MILLION AMERICANS would be dead..30 MILLION...

If a foreign country did this to us what would we do....

That seems pretty high
I wonder where you get
your numbers.

Do you have statistics
to back it up?

I'll try to find it...

If you are going to start comparing apples to oranges might as well be
fair and start adding the Arab on Arab violence from the past 1000
years.

duh...

Well... ok... We will use your time frame.

Bush 1. - Sadam invaded Kuwait. US forces were placed in harms way as
part of an international coalition within the charter of the UN. (last
time I check that meant more than one nation)

Clinton - UN resolution. Last time I checked that meant world
consensus not US alone.

Bush jr. Public Law 107-243. If you haven't checked it out then you
need to. Congress giving Bush the mandate to place US troops into harms
way to inforce UN measure 660 (in reference to violiations of a cease
fire agreement by Iraq).

To lay all those deaths at the feet of the US is absurd. Many forces at
work here.

To allow you political views to 'predjuice' your thinking means to be
part of the herd and not of the shepards.

I'll withdraw my point since I'm having trouble finding
the reference....it was all about %tage of population



generically the point is: If what is happening in Iraq was
happening here instead...we wouldnt put up with it for
a min..

Point looked to me like...

Every death in Iraq over the last decade is our fault...

Those people been killing each other for a long time.

We just upped the stuck our nose in an allready violent situation...
After lots of diplomacy and I am sure a bit of anguish.

we are however putting up with over 25 americans dying everyday in
america at the hands of illegal aliens, as put out by the justice
department, is it true i dont know seems kinda high to me, but in the
context works just the same.

also putting up with how many die on the road everyday from drunken
drivers?

how many people dy everyday by repeat violent offenders?

how many americans dy everyday in america already, and tell me we wont
stand for it, its happening everyday, only its not a political issue so
no one gives it any air time or lip service.

if that were put out to the public on a daily issue i think that people
would be enraged, and forget all the cranked up cranked out stories
being fed to them about iraq.




doc

Good call doc.

when I read your post, davinci, I thought what you were saying was more
like this,

I a neighboring country, say Canada or Mexico, decided to try to
'subdue' us and they started by taking over or attacking small towns and
taking hostages and all manner of terrible things, would we, as a
country, put up with it long enough (13 years) to incurr percantage wise
the same number of deaths, being the HUGE figure given.
If that was the question, hell no, which actually seems like a very
good thing to me at the moment, because it makes me realize that as a
country, we are the best at coming together and defending this nations.
YEA!

just wanted to drop some numbers on you....

every year there are;

By Rita Rubin, USA TODAY
The U.S. population may be aging, but the number of Americans who died
in 2004 represents the biggest one-year decline since World War II,
according to preliminary government data released Wednesday.
Nearly 50,000 fewer Americans died in 2004 than in 2003, according to
data based on about 90% of U.S. death certificates. The preliminary
number of U.S. deaths in 2004 was 2,398,343, compared with 2,448,288 in
2003.

Now i wish they had the numbers compiled up to date but they dont
unfortunately, but according to the bureau of census an average of 8 out
of every 1,000 americans will die this year, there is good news tho, 14
for every 1000 will be born.


whats my point,,,,,
3000 plus american men and women have died since the start of the war in
iraq in 2003, thats pretty damned good, wonder what the percentage of
those would have died in motor vehicle accidents or training accidents
back in the states, we have had several die here since we've been back,
it is sad and a shame, but the reality is there havent been that many
deaths as far as wars go.



doc

Doc, you made a good point, in both your replies. I wonder what the
count would be if we were to take ONLY violent crimes in which death
occured, in the US any given year? Scary

hey red those numbers are in the gun control thread







doc

DaVinci: I disagree with your numbers. The number of civillians killed
by US action is no where near that percentage. I think its 5 to 10k
depending on how closely you slice the definition of "millitary action".

Yes, I have heard wild stories of "10s of thousands per month"
slaughtered by US forces. I also heard stories of "10s of thousands
starving indirectly because of US forces" - simply doesnt apply.

I will say that 10k civillian casualities by US forces is unnacceptable,
and THAT has to be addressed. But, to stretch it into genocidal
proportions is a distortion that is irresponsible.

I retract my point - I had not read DaVinci's point that he couldnt find
the stats to back him up - round of applause for an honest man! (that
was sincere)

civilian deaths, how do they happen? i know some of the answer, what
your take on it.

yeah...well I jumped the gun on this post..although the interview that I
listened to was thought provoking..but it does leave me wondering
something...

if the US were attacked under similar circumstance there would be hell
to pay for sure...
but would we suffer the same fate and splinter off into regional
struggles for control...
ie...north vs south vs southwest ....I tend to think we would...

that question should be a new thread maybe

we dont have the splintered sects as a country like iraq, you could pick
out some countries if you d like still the same thing, we are not
devided that way, by groups of religion,,,now if you were to say ethnics
against whitey, then maybe i would have gone with you but, even then we
are all scatered across the country arent we?