If a civilian, man, woman, or child, is shooting at you I can understand. But these shells are indirect and indescriminate.
The people being harmed by them are mostly non-participants. They just happen to live there.

what about the innocent civilians hamas kills you are condemning one side and not the other

that is kind of hypacritical don't ya think

I do not approve of either sides killing of civilians, but the Palestinians do not have an Air Force, Navy, accurate artillery, or tanks.

When they fire those bottle rockets, their ability to hit anything is mere chance at best.

Hundreds have been fired, only 3 or 4 people have been killed.

To say they were aiming at civilians would be an exaggerated assumption. How do you not know they are trying to hit a legitimate military target? We dont, we can only assume.

Israel on the other hand has accurate artillery and GPS guided munitions. Not to mention an overwhelming manpower ratio in their favor.

They know the areas they are firing WP into are severely crowded with civilians. They dont care. They have killed more than 1100. How many have been maimed and wounded?

We dont have any idea. Israel is controlling the press. All we really know is what they want us to, and what little bit escapes by smuggling it out.

The response of Israel is a little overwhelming. Don't ya think?

Katyusha and Kassams are not bottle rockets. They kill people. When given the opportunnity Hamas likes to bomb
buses. What is the military objective of that?

Israel can hardly be accused of controlling the press when posters on this forum quote endlessly long anti-Israel articles with the most biased reporting even after many of the scurrilous claims have been publicly successfully refuted.

There is no excuse for Hamas. They target civilians. Israel must respond or accept the blatant killing of their civilians. The situation could not be clearer as to who genuinely seeks peace.

Today, Israel committed to a unilateral cease fire to give peace a chance in Gaza. Rather than embrace this opportunity, Hamas vociferously declared that they would continue their attacks on innocent civilians and launched a barrage of rockets. Hamas has no respect for the human lives of the Israelis or the Gazans. Even when the chance for peace is presented over and over. This is why, eventually, Hamas is doomed to the the ashbin of history along with others like Al-Quaida who will kill anyone anytime who simply do not share their religious beliefs.

The world is coming around to the threat that groups like Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Al-Quaida represent. Such groups are at war with the rest of civilization but they came a few decades too late because now word of their attacks is disseminated electronically everywhere revealing their killing and intimidation of innocent people for the revulsion of all educated people.

Here's hoping that Hamas is quickly and soundly routed in Gaza never to gather arms again. May peace come soon and permanently to the Gazans and Israelis.

First regarding White Phosphorous. If both sides are using against civilian population then both are guilty regardless of who.


Second




Dozens of bodies found in Gaza rubble as truce punctured

2 hours ago

GAZA CITY (AFP) — Israeli troops and Palestinian fighters exchanged their first shots on Sunday in Gaza, where dozens of bodies were pulled from the rubble after Israel ended a deadly war on Hamas.

As Israeli air strikes and militant rocket fire punctured the tenuous truce in the territory, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned the unilateral ceasefire Israel had begun hours earlier was fragile and was being constantly reassessed.

"The government's decision allows Israel to respond and renew the fire if our enemy in the Gaza Strip continues its strikes," he said at the start of the weekly cabinet meeting in Jerusalem.

"This morning they again proved that the ceasefire is fragile and it has to be reassessed on a minute by minute basis," he said. "We hope that the fire ends. If it continues, the IDF (Israeli Defence Forces) will respond."

Palestinian medics took advantage of the halt in Israel's deadliest offensive on Gaza to rush to areas which had been inaccessible due to furious fighting.

At least 95 bodies, including those of several children, were pulled from the rubble, mostly in the northern towns of Jabaliya and Beit Lahiya, they said.

In south Gaza, a 20-year-old man became the first Palestinian killed since the truce went into effect when Israeli troops shot him in the chest while he travelled in a vehicle near the southern town of Khan Yunis, medics said.

The incidents come amid a major diplomatic push by Egypt to turn Israel's unilateral ceasefire into a lasting truce, with President Hosni Mubarak hosting leaders from Britain, France, Germany, Italy, Jordan, Spain and Turkey.

But officials said that the clashes did not necessarily mean a return to all-out fighting.

"There will no doubt be isolated incidents," Israeli Infrastructure Minister Benjamin Ben-Eliezer said. "It will take two to three days for everything to end completely, for Hamas to understand that we are now in a new scenario."

Gaza's Hamas rulers warned that they would not accept the presence of a single Israeli soldier in Gaza.

"We have clearly said: if Israeli troops remain in Gaza, this will be a wide window for the resistance against the occupation," Osama Hamdan, the group's representative in Lebanon, said in an interview with Al-Jazeera television.

Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas repeated his call for a complete withdrawal of all Israeli forces from Gaza and the re-opening of the enclave's border crossings, saying Israel's truce was "important and necessary but insufficient."

On the ground, as Hamas congratulated the Palestinians on "victory" from mosque loudspeakers, Gaza residents cautiously ventured out into the streets to inspect the rubble that was once their homes.

"We congratulate all the Palestinian people after the victory in the fight with the enemy," bellowed a voice from a Hamas mosque in central Gaza City.

Meanwhile Yahia Karin, 54, surveyed the damage in Zeitun, his neighbourhood in southern Gaza that was the scene of some of the most furious battles between Israeli ground troops and Hamas militants.

"Everything has been completely destroyed," he said looking at the charred pile of rubble on the spot where he once lived.

On the diplomatic front, Egypt is to host an international summit on Sunday afternoon attended by several European leaders and UN chief Ban Ki-moon.

Hosni Mubarak, the Egyptian president, said on Saturday his country "will continue its efforts as soon as there is a ceasefire to restore the truce and lift the blockade" imposed by Israel on crossing points into Gaza after Hamas seized power in the territory in June 2007.

Olmert announced late on Saturday that Israel was unilaterally silencing its guns after an unprecedented 22-day-long campaign in Gaza, which killed at least 1,300 people, including more than 400 children, wounded another 5,300, and left large swathes of the territory in ruins.

On the Israeli side three civilians and 10 soldiers were killed in combat and rocket attacks.

During the course of the war, schools, hospitals, UN compounds and thousands of homes all came under attack with the Palestinian Authority putting the cost of damage to infrastructure alone at 476 million dollars.

The halt to the violence came after the Jewish state won pledges from Washington and Cairo to help prevent arms smuggling into Gaza, a key demand to halt the fighting.

The ceasefire comes less than a month before Israel holds elections when Olmert, who formally resigned last autumn, is due to stand down.

The premier, whose reputation was badly damaged by a 2006 war in Lebanon seen by many Israelis as a disaster, said the Gaza war had "strengthened the deterrence of the state of Israel in the face of all those who threaten us."


http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gYNGE2raaOMxnq3AF7mBlbnbj2TQ


...................................................


Seems that they are refusing to have an occupying force.


So now he / his party stands a better chance of winning the upcoming election? The whole thing done to offset what the Lebanon war did to his reputation, his party's reputation? A chance to 'look' tougher to the voters?


What about all this deadly fire from UN buildings, schools and apartment buildings?

simple.

if Hamas stops firing there will be peace.
the rest is just irrelevant.

there cannot be peace when Hamas is firing
rockets at Israeli civilians. simple as that.
don't you think they should stop?

i think i can speak for the rest of the
international community when i say...

"i do think they should stop." preferably yesterday.

"We have clearly said: if Israeli troops remain in Gaza, this will be a wide window for the resistance against the occupation," Osama Hamdan, the group's representative in Lebanon, said in an interview with Al-Jazeera television.

Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas repeated his call for a complete withdrawal of all Israeli forces from Gaza and the re-opening of the enclave's border crossings, saying Israel's truce was "important and necessary but insufficient."



Hamas should indeed stop firing rockets.

However will Israel remove all troops from Gaza and open the borders? If not then they are no further advanced.


Simple.

I think all people have right to not have their lands occupied and to have free access to goods. Don't you?

first things first.

BEFORE this ever started, there were no Israeli troops
in Gaza and humanitarian goods (not arms) were allowed
into Gaza. The "occupation" Hamas complains of is
according to their own documents - the existence of
Israel.

The "blockade" Hamas objects to is the free flow of arms.

Let them stop firing rockets at Israel first.
There cannot be any kind of peace until Hamas stops
firing rockets and attacking Israeli troops.

I am not disagreeing with you. Gazans deserve peace
but I am concerned because I do not believe that Hamas
truly desires this because when they did have the chance
to seek peace after the Israelis completely pulled out
of Gaza in 2005 Hamas did not pursue peace but instead
pursued war.

The "blockade" Hamas objects to is the free flow of arms.

In 2006, the Israelis added to their unrelieved control of air, water and land around the open-air prison by establishing a blockade. The natives became restless. Under international law, a blockade is an act of war. Primitive rockets, called by reporters "wildly inaccurate" were fired into Israel. During this same period, Israeli soldiers and artillery and missiles would go into Gaza at will and take far more lives and cause far more injuries than those incurred by those rockets. Civilians-especially children, the infirm and elderly-died or suffered week after week for lack of medicines, medical equipment, food, electricity, fuel and water which were embargoed by the Israelis.

The horror of being trapped from fleeing the torrent of the most modern weapons of war from the land, air and seas is reflected in this passage from Amira Hass, writing in the leading Israeli newspaper Haaretz:

"The earth shaking under your feet, clouds of choking smoke, explosions like a fireworks display, bombs bursting into all-consuming flames that cannot be extinguished with water, mushroom clouds of pinkish-red smoke, suffocating gas, harsh burns on the skin, extraordinary maimed live and dead bodies."

Ms. Hass is pointing to the use of new anti-civilian weapons used on the Gazan people




Since 2002, more than 50 Arab and Muslim nations have had a standing offer, repeated often, that if Israel obeys several UN resolutions and withdraws to the 1967 borders leaving 22 percent of the original Palestine for an independent Palestinian state, they will open full diplomatic relations and there will be peace. Israel has declined to accept this offer.


http://www.commondreams.org/view/2009/01/17-1




Sounds like white phosphorous to me.

An Israeli reporter talking about 'anti-civilian weapons' in an Israeli newspaper! Civilians not even able to flee the area! That blockade, from an Israeli journalist, was blocking more than arms!

Both sides need to let up on their respective actions. Once the Palestinian people are treated like people, allowed the basic freedoms and rights of people, there will be no excuse or reason for rockets into Israel.

As I understand it, retreating to the 1967 borders poses an extremely serious military/security threat to Israel so this proposal is a non-starter. Promises that if you take an extremely weak military position - from countries who do not recognize your right to exist - that they will finally recognize you after you have placed yourself in a militarily vulnerable position will never fly. Israel will not and should not tolerate such a situation.

Here's what President Ronald Reagan had to say about all of this on September 1, 1982: "In the pre-1967 borders, Israel was barely 10-miles wide... the bulk of Israel's population within artillery range of hostile armies. I am not about to ask Israel to live that way again."

The border issue was earlier addressed by US Gen. McNamara way back in 67 regarding this issue who indicated that a return to the earlier borders was indefensible. UN Resolution 242 does not call for a return to these borders.

see:

http://www.cdn-friends-icej.ca/un/242a.html

for much more see:

http://www.jcpa.org/jl/vp500.htm

and

http://www.defensibleborders.org/

Hamas was not even called to the negotiations. The deal was a deal between Israel and the US.
Hamas has said all along that they,
A- demand Israel open the border gates. and
B- they will not accept an occupation.



You dont speak for the International Community. You have one of the narrowest views of the situation I have seen. You speak for Israel and only for Israel.
They should pay you as a mini propaganda minister.

Deadly???? The other 9 were killed by friendly fire.

It appears Israel has killed more of their own than the deadly bottle rockets.

Hey, here's an idea. Maybe they should attack themselves!

LMAO

Propaganda BS!!


That's Israel's tale!

This time read it Slow!


MIDEAST: Israel Rejected Hamas Ceasefire Offer in December
By Gareth Porter*

WASHINGTON, Jan 9 (IPS) - Contrary to Israel's argument that it was forced to launch its air and ground offensive against Gaza in order to stop the firing of rockets into its territory, Hamas proposed in mid-December to return to the original Hamas-Israel ceasefire arrangement, according to a U.S.-based source who has been briefed on the proposal.

The proposal to renew the ceasefire was presented by a high-level Hamas delegation to Egyptian Minister of Intelligence Omar Suleiman at a meeting in Cairo Dec. 14. The delegation, said to have included Moussa Abu Marzouk, the second-ranking official in the Hamas political bureau in Damascus, told Suleiman that Hamas was prepared to stop all rocket attacks against Israel if the Israelis would open up the Gaza border crossings and pledge not to launch attacks in Gaza.

The Hamas officials insisted that Israel not be allowed to close or reduce commercial traffic through border crossings for political purposes, as it had done during the six-month lull, according to the source. They asked Suleiman, who had served as mediator between Israel and Hamas in negotiating the original six-month Gaza ceasefire last spring, to "put pressure" on Israel to take that the ceasefire proposal seriously.

Suleiman said he could not pressure Israel but could only make the suggestion to Israeli officials. It could not be learned, however, whether Israel explicitly rejected the Hamas proposal or simply refused to respond to Egypt.

The readiness of Hamas to return to the ceasefire conditionally in mid-December was confirmed by Dr. Robert Pastor, a professor at American University and senior adviser to the Carter Centre, who met with Khaled Meshal, chairman of the Hamas political bureau in Damascus on Dec. 14, along with former President Jimmy Carter. Pastor told IPS that Meshal indicated Hamas was willing to go back to the ceasefire that had been in effect up to early November "if there was a sign that Israel would lift the siege on Gaza".

Pastor said he passed Meshal's statement on to a "senior official" in the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) the day after the meeting with Meshal. According to Pastor, the Israeli official said he would get back to him, but did not.

"There was an alternative to the military approach to stopping the rockets," said Pastor. He added that Israel is unlikely to have an effective ceasefire in Gaza unless it agrees to lift the siege.

The Israeli Embassy in Washington declined to comment Thursday on whether there had been any discussion of a ceasefire proposal from Hamas in mid-December that would have stopped the rocket firing.

Abu Omar, a spokesman for Hamas leader Khaled Meshal in Syria, told CBS news Wednesday that Hamas could only accept the ceasefire plan now being proposed by France and Egypt, which guarantees an end to Israel's blockade of Gaza as soon as hostilities on both sides were halted. Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said Israel would only support the proposal if it also included measures to prevent Hamas from re-arming.

The interest of Hamas in a ceasefire agreement that would actually open the border crossings was acknowledged at a Dec. 21 Israeli cabinet meeting -- five days before the beginning of the Israeli military offensive -- by Yuval Diskin, the head of Israel's internal security agency, Shin Bet. "Make no mistake, Hamas is interested in maintaining the truce," Diskin was quoted by Y-net News agency as saying.

Israel's rejection of the Hamas December proposal reflected its preference for maintaining Israel's primary leverage over Hamas and the Palestinian population of Gaza -- its ability to choke off food and goods required for the viability of its economy -- even at the cost of continued Palestinian rocket attacks.

The ceasefire agreement that went into effect Jun. 19, 2008 required that Israel lift the virtual siege of Gaza which Israel had imposed after the June 2007 Hamas takeover. Although the terms of the agreement were not made public at the time, they were included in a report published this week by the International Crisis Group (ICG), which obtained a copy of the understanding last June.

In addition to a halt in all military actions by both sides, the agreement called on Israel to increase the level of goods entering Gaza by 30 percent over the pre-lull period within 72 hours and to open all border crossings and "allow the transfer of all goods that were banned and restricted to go into Gaza" within 13 days after the beginning of the ceasefire.

Nevertheless, Israeli officials freely acknowledged in interviews with ICG last June that they had no intention of opening the border crossings fully, even though they anticipated that this would be the source of serious conflict with Hamas.

The Israelis opened the access points only partially, and in late July Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni declared that the border crossings should remain closed until Hamas agreed to the release of Gilad Shalit, an IDF soldier abducted by Hamas in June 2006. The Hamas representative in Lebanon, Usam Hamdan, told the ICG in late December that the flow of goods and fuel into Gaza had been only 15 percent of its basic needs.

Despite Israel's refusal to end the siege, Hamas brought rocket and mortar fire from Gaza to a virtual halt last summer and fall, as revealed by a report by the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center (ITIC) in Tel Aviv last month. ITIC is part of the Israel Intelligence Heritage & Commemoration Centre (IICC), an NGO which is close to the Israeli intelligence community.

In the first days after the ceasefire took effect, Islamic Jihad fired nine rockets and a few mortar rounds in retaliation for Israeli assassinations of their members in the West Bank. In August another eight rockets were fired by various groups, according to IDF data cited in the report. But it shows that only one rocket was launched from Gaza in September and one in October.

The report recalls that Hamas "tried to enforce the terms of the arrangement" on other Palestinian groups, taking "a number of steps against networks which violated the arrangement," including short-term detention and confiscating their weapons. It even found that Hamas had sought support in Gazan public opinion for its policy of maintaining the ceasefire.

On Nov. 4 -- just when the ceasefire was most effective -- the IDF carried out an attack against a house in Gaza in which six members of Hamas's military wing were killed, including two commanders, and several more were wounded. The IDF explanation for the operation was that it had received intelligence that a tunnel was being dug near the Israeli security fence for the purpose of abducing Israeli soldiers.

Hamas officials asserted, however, that the tunnel was being dug for defensive purposes, not to capture IDF personnel, according to Pastor, and one IDF official confirmed that fact to him.

After that Israeli attack, the ceasefire completely fell apart, as Hamas began openly firing rockets into Israel, the IDF continued to carry out military operations inside Gaza, and the border crossings were "closed most of the time", according to the ITIC account.

Israel cited the firing of 190 rockets over six weeks as the justification for its massive attack on Gaza.

*Gareth Porter is an investigative historian and journalist specialising in U.S. national security policy.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45350

actually, the whole Hamas caused conflict in recent weeks is one giant ugly "self-inflicted wound" for Hamas with
hundreds of innocent civilians also victims.

NEARLY SEVENTY YEARS ago, in the course of World War II, a heinous crime was committed in the city of Leningrad. For more than a thousand days, a gang of extremists called "the Red Army" held the millions of the town's inhabitants hostage and provoked retaliation from the German Wehrmacht from inside the population centers. The Germans had no alternative but to bomb and shell the population and to impose a total blockade, which caused the death of hundreds of thousands.

Some time before that, a similar crime was committed in England. The Churchill gang hid among the population of London, misusing the millions of citizens as a human shield. The Germans were compelled to send their Luftwaffe and reluctantly reduce the city to ruins. They called it the Blitz.

http://www.issuesandalibis.org/

At least they are honest!!!

They said they wouldnt stop unless Israel opened the gates and they would not accept an occupation force.
They fight on.

Israel on the other hand has lied, lied, lied.
They said they started the offensive because of the rockets. Lie...
I just showed you they rejected the opportunity to stop the fire, and I showed you the reason behind the rocket fire was due to Israel not honoring the previous cease fire agreement.
Israel lied about bombing the UN school and their HQ.
They lied about the WP.
They are not to be trusted or believed. In fact the only thing about them that can be trusted is that they are liars and cant be believed.

well at least you have some sense of humor!

Oh yea,
They lied when they said they had achieved their objectives.

The rocket fire continues. Hamas is still deviant. They wont roll over.
Maybe that is why they are the legitimate Democratically elected Gov of the Palestinian people.

Sorry, but I don't believe that. Besides, the terrorist in Gaza get everything they deserve. They are making life miserable for both the Palestinians and the Israelis.