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Topic: Burn Victims in Gaza
Winx's photo
Sun 01/11/09 07:12 PM
The incendiary agent that is being shot into Gaza is intended to burn steel such as a tank turret. It burns through the steel and then explodes.

Why on earth are they shooting this into civilian areas?!

This costs more money then a normal artillery shell, btw.

sexysweeti's photo
Sun 01/11/09 07:12 PM
Our soldiers died to protect Israel....from what?
And Israel acts as terrorists all because of the Jewish Americans, the jewish Federal lobbist to big corporations and the AIPAC.

AIPAC claims to have 100,000 members and on its website prominently displays a New York Times description of the group: "The most important organization affecting America's relationship with Israel."
Normally operating behind the scenes in political and lobbyist orbits, in recent years AIPAC has been forced into the spotlight over a controversy involving two of its (now former) employees.

In May 2005, the FBI arrested Lawrence Franklin, a Pentagon analyst, for disclosing government secrets. According to an FBI affidavit, Franklin shared information about possible attacks on U.S. forces in Iraq with AIPAC staffers Steven Rosen and Keith Weissman during an FBI-monitored lunch in June 2003. Franklin was allegedly upset that his hardline stance on Iran was being overlooked, and he hoped AIPAC would be able to attract attention to his views. According to the New York Times, supporters of an "influential circle in the Pentagon" (whose members have long-standing ties to AIPAC and were leading advocates for war in Iraq) blame the FBI's investigation on "the continuing struggle inside the administration over intelligence" (New York Times, May 5, 2005).




http://rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/1432.html

Fanta46's photo
Sun 01/11/09 07:26 PM

The incendiary agent that is being shot into Gaza is intended to burn steel such as a tank turret. It burns through the steel and then explodes.

Why on earth are they shooting this into civilian areas?!

This costs more money then a normal artillery shell, btw.


They are committing terrorist acts. Trying to drive the Palestinians who survive either out of Palestine or into submission!

It is their nature! It is their history!
A better question is why are we allowing our Gov to be a part of this genocide!

Fanta46's photo
Sun 01/11/09 07:30 PM
Willy Pete! White Phosphorous!
I have placed a WP grenade on top of a 5 Ton Truck and pulled the pin. It burned through the hood, through the engine, and dropped onto the ground underneath the Truck in less than 30 sec.
You can not put it out by conventional methods. If it gets on your skin the best you can do is cut it off.

Winx's photo
Sun 01/11/09 07:42 PM

Willy Pete! White Phosphorous!
I have placed a WP grenade on top of a 5 Ton Truck and pulled the pin. It burned through the hood, through the engine, and dropped onto the ground underneath the Truck in less than 30 sec.
You can not put it out by conventional methods. If it gets on your skin the best you can do is cut it off.


It's made for equipment, not people!!!!:angry:

karmafury's photo
Sun 01/11/09 07:48 PM
In so much as the use of WP around civilians is deplorable. Note that:

"The use of white phosphorus or fuel air explosives are not prohibited or restricted by Protocol II of the Certain Conventional Weapons Convention (CCWC), the Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons which may be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects. "

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/wp.htm

Fanta46's photo
Sun 01/11/09 07:49 PM


Willy Pete! White Phosphorous!
I have placed a WP grenade on top of a 5 Ton Truck and pulled the pin. It burned through the hood, through the engine, and dropped onto the ground underneath the Truck in less than 30 sec.
You can not put it out by conventional methods. If it gets on your skin the best you can do is cut it off.


It's made for equipment, not people!!!!:angry:


Correct!
That and for a smoke screen. Although this is usually done to mask troop movements across open areas, not in urban areas. Israel is lying! It burns with a thick white smoke.

Fanta46's photo
Sun 01/11/09 07:50 PM
They are more likely than not using it to burn out urban areas.
Intentional!

Fanta46's photo
Sun 01/11/09 07:54 PM
If they arent careful they will start a fire greater than the SF fire!

Oh wait! Maybe that's what they mean to do......

sexysweeti's photo
Sun 01/11/09 08:03 PM

In so much as the use of WP around civilians is deplorable. Note that:

"The use of white phosphorus or fuel air explosives are not prohibited or restricted by Protocol II of the Certain Conventional Weapons Convention (CCWC), the Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons which may be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects. "


What about nalpalm was it deemed to be excessively injurious or to have indiscriminate effects? It has been used quite often.



www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/napalm.htm

karmafury's photo
Sun 01/11/09 08:04 PM
Sorry to get off topic but here are results of IDF investigation into hitting of UN school.



Last update - 08:51 11/01/2009
IDF investigation shows errant mortar hit UN building in Gaza
By Amos Harel
Tags: Israel News, Gaza, IDF, Hamas

A preliminary investigation into the fatal shooting by the Israel Defense Forces into a United Nations building in northern Gaza on Tuesday reveals the Israeli troops firing on the building missed their targets by some 30 meters.

Hamas is claiming the mortar fire killed 42 people and left dozens wounded, but senior IDF officers say the figures are dubious and that Hamas is inflating the numbers.

The probe, which was conducted by the Paratrooper Brigade whose troops were responsible for the area, found that the army's location system to pinpoint launch sites indicated that militants had launched a Qassam rocket into Israel from within a yard adjacent to the courtyard of the UN building.

The troops had intended to launch a smart missile to take out the Palestinian launch team but a technical malfunction made this impossible, according to the probe. The commanders of the force instead decided to fire on the Qassam team with mortar shells equipped with a Global Positioning System for accurate fire.

However, the GPS element has an error margin of 30 meters and one of the three rounds fired by the paratrooper force slammed into the building owned by the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, or UNRWA.

Two of the rounds hit the yard used to launch rockets into Israel, killing two members of Hamas' military wing who probably belonged to the squad that fired the rockets.

Nonetheless, in discussing the incident with Haaretz, some IDF officers say the force should have refrained from using mortar rounds and relied instead on more accurate fire. Military sources said the UNRWA building was marked on the maps of forces operating in the area.

Other officers said they found the death toll published by Hamas grossly exaggerated, pointing out that a week ago only three IDF soldiers were killed when a tank fired two rounds - which have a much larger impact than mortar rounds - into a building which was occupied by 50 IDF soldiers.

Officers interviewed for this article pointed out that Hezbollah resorted to similar inflation tactics after an IDF bomb landed on a UN post in Qana in southern Lebanon in 2006.


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1054284.html

.......................................................


Seems that 'smart' munitions may not be so smart!

s1owhand's photo
Sun 01/11/09 08:09 PM
Edited by s1owhand on Sun 01/11/09 08:10 PM
Jan 12, 2009 0:14 | Updated Jan 12, 2009 3:18
IDF: We're not using illegal weapons
By YAAKOV KATZ AND AP

The IDF rejected accusations on Sunday that it is using illegal arms in its war against Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

Human Rights Watch earlier accused the army of firing artillery shells packed with white phosphorus, an incendiary agent, over populated areas, including a crowded refugee camp, and putting civilians at risk.

Researchers from the NGO said they witnessed hours of artillery bombardments on Friday and Saturday afternoon from just within Israel in which shells burst over the Jabalya refugee camp in northern Gaza, sending out trails of burning smoke that indicated the shells contained white phosphorus.

The substance can cause serious burns if it touches the skin and can spark fires on the ground, the rights group said in a written announcement calling on Israel not to use it in crowded areas.

In response, the IDF released a statement saying that it only used "munitions in accordance with international law."

The IDF came under similar criticism during the Second Lebanon War for its use of cluster bombs.

karmafury's photo
Sun 01/11/09 08:20 PM
Edited by karmafury on Sun 01/11/09 08:21 PM


In so much as the use of WP around civilians is deplorable. Note that:

"The use of white phosphorus or fuel air explosives are not prohibited or restricted by Protocol II of the Certain Conventional Weapons Convention (CCWC), the Convention on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Certain Conventional Weapons which may be Deemed to be Excessively Injurious or to have Indiscriminate Effects. "


What about nalpalm was it deemed to be excessively injurious or to have indiscriminate effects? It has been used quite often.



www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/napalm.htm



There are no specific munitions in Protocols save what the prime purpose of said munitions to be allowed / disallowed accordingly.

Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons (Protocol III). Geneva, 10 October 1980.


Article 1
Definitions

For the purpose of this Protocol:
1. "Incendiary weapon" means any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons through the action of flame, heat, or combination thereof, produced by a chemical reaction of a substance delivered on the target. (a) Incendiary weapons can take the form of, for example, flame throwers, fougasses, shells, rockets, grenades, mines, bombs and other containers of incendiary substances.
(b) Incendiary weapons do not include:
(i) Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems;
(ii) Munitions designed to combine penetration, blast or fragmentation effects with an additional incendiary effect, such as armour-piercing projectiles, fragmentation shells, explosive bombs and similar combined-effects munitions in which the incendiary effect is not specifically designed to cause burn injury to persons, but to be used against military objectives, such as armoured vehicles, aircraft and installations or facilities.
2. "Concentration of civilians" means any concentration of civilians, be it permanent or temporary, such as in inhabited parts of cities, or inhabited towns or villages, or as in camps or columns of refugees or evacuees, or groups of nomads.
3. "Military objective" means, so far as objects are concerned, any object which by its nature, location, purpose or use makes an effective contribution to military action and whose total or partial destruction, capture or neutralization, in the circumstances ruling at the time, offers a definite military advantage.
4. "Civilian objects" are all objects which are not military objectives as defined in paragraph 3.
5. "Feasible precautions" are those precautions which are practicable or practically possible taking into account all circumstances ruling at the time, including humanitarian and military considerations.


Article 2
Protection of civilians and civilian objects

1. It is prohibited in all circumstances to make the civilian population as such, individual civilians or civilian objects the object of attack by incendiary weapons.
2. It is prohibited in all circumstances to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by air-delivered incendiary weapons.
3. It is further prohibited to make any military objective located within a concentration of civilians the object of attack by means of incendiary weapons other than air-delivered incendiary weapons, except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken with a view to limiting the incendiary effects to the military objective and to avoiding, and in any event to minimizing, incidental loss of civilian life, injury to civilians and damage to civilian objects.
4. It is prohibited to make forests or other kinds of plant cover the object of attack by incendiary weapons except when such natural elements are used to cover, conceal or camouflage combatants or other military objectives, or are themselves military objectives.

Fanta46's photo
Sun 01/11/09 08:25 PM
Have you ever fired a mortar?

A mortar is an indirect fire weapon. It must be walked into a target. This is done with the base gun and almost never gets on target with the first round. Even using GPS will not take away the need to adjust fire. Once the base gun Zeros in on target, then all three guns will Fire for Effect. Since they are all aligned according to aiming posts approx 100 ft apart, and position on the same azimuth, there is no need to adjust each gun individually. Once they begin FFE the rounds will land approx how the guns are positioned. covering an area approx 300 ft wide.
Anyone who has ever been in a mortar platoon knows they can not hit a specific point on the ground. Only an area. Therefore they are an indirect weapon. The Israeli's are lying!

Fanta46's photo
Sun 01/11/09 08:32 PM
Edited by Fanta46 on Sun 01/11/09 08:34 PM
Secondly,
If they were using GPS. The only benefit would be that they would not need a Forward Observer or that it was too foggy for a forward observer to see very well. Without a forward Observer being present then that means they were firing indiscriminately, relying on GPS to pick up an approx point that the fire was originating. Not caring, what they should have known was in the area. A UN School!

karmafury's photo
Sun 01/11/09 08:38 PM
Back on subject now.



JERUSALEM – Human Rights Watch said Sunday that Israel's military has fired artillery shells with the incendiary agent white phosphorus into Gaza and a doctor there said the chemical was suspected in the case of 10 burn victims who had skin peeling off their faces and bodies.

Researchers in Israel from the rights group witnessed hours of artillery bombardments that sent trails of burning smoke indicating white phosphorus over the Jebaliya refugee camp in northern Gaza. But they could not confirm injuries on the ground because they have been barred from entering the territory.

The chief doctor at Nasser Hospital in southern Gaza said he treated several victims there with serious burns that might have been caused by phosphorus. He said, however, that he did not have the resources or expertise to say with certainty what caused the injuries.

The substance can cause serious burns if it touches the skin and can spark fires on the ground, the rights group said in a written statement calling on Israel not to use it in crowded areas of Gaza.

Military spokeswoman Maj. Avital Leibovich refused to comment directly on whether Israel was using phosphorus, but said the army was "using its munitions in accordance with international law."

Israel used white phosphorus in its 34-day war with Hezbollah in Lebanon in 2006. The U.S. military in Iraq used the incendiary during a November 2004 operation against insurgents in the city of Fallujah.

An AP photographer and a TV crew based in Gaza visited Nasser Hospital in Khan Younis on Sunday and recorded images of several burn patients.

One of them, Haitham Tahseen, recalled sitting outside his home with his family in the morning when something exploded above them.

"Suddenly, I saw bombs coming with white smoke," said the man, whose burned face was covered with medical cream. "It looked very red and it had white smoke. That's the first time I've seen such a thing."

His cousin, in another hospital bed, was more severely burned, with patches of skin peeling off his face and body, and had to be wrapped with thick white bandages.

The hospital's chief doctor, Youssef Abu Rish, said the burns were not from contact with fire, but he couldn't say what sort of substance caused them. He said information he collected on the Internet indicated it could have been white phosphorus.

White phosphorus is not considered a chemical weapon, and militaries are permitted under laws of warfare to use it in artillery shells, bombs and rockets to create smoke screens to hide troop movements as well as bright bursts in the air to illuminate battlefields at night.

Israel is not party to a convention regulating its use. Under customary laws of war, however, Israel would be expected to take all feasible precautions to minimize the impact of white phosphorus on civilians, Human Rights Watch said.

"What we're saying is the use of white phosphorus in densely populated areas like a refugee camp is showing that the Israelis are not taking all feasible precautions," said Marc Garlasco, a senior military analyst for the rights group. "It's just an unnecessary risk to the civilian population, not only in the potential for wounds but also for burning homes and infrastructure."

Garlasco was among researchers on a ridge about a mile (1.5 kilometers) from the Gaza border who observed the shelling from a 155mm artillery unit on Friday and Saturday.

Some of the burning trails of smoke caused fires on the ground that appeared to go out after a few minutes, said Garlasco, who formerly worked at the Pentagon where he was in charge of recommending high-value targets for airstrikes during the 2003 invasion of Iraq.

Each 155mm shell contains 116 of what Garlasco described as wafers doused in phosphorus that can be spread over an area as large as a sports field, depending on the height at which it detonates. The phosphorus ignites when it comes in contact with oxygen.

Human Rights Watch has not been able to confirm whether there have been any civilian casualties from phosphorus. The group has a consultant working for it inside Gaza but he has been unable to move around due to the danger. Foreign journalists have also been barred from entering Gaza.

Garlasco said photos published Thursday in British newspaper The Times showed Israeli units handling American-manufactured white phosphorus shells with fuses on them.



Nice when you don't have to follow the rules because you didn't acknowledge them.


This is 'targeting of specific' targets?

Fanta46's photo
Sun 01/11/09 08:41 PM
Edited by Fanta46 on Sun 01/11/09 08:42 PM
If you ever seen it used you would know.

I have and I have seen the shells bursting over Gaza.

They are using it!

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