I have to say that the most hurtful thing anyone ever said to me was not
during a heated debate, not even in a disucussion, it was a quiet short
sentance and the look on his face was discust when he said, "you are
just selfish, spoiled and selfish". I was about 12 at the time. I
cried all afternoon, and for days, weeks, months, I paid close attention
to everything I said and did, because, you see, I had always thought I
was most kind, considerate and caring. It took years for me to realize
that I was not selfish, but I still think of it whenever I do something
"I" want to do and I wonder, 'am I being selfish'.

My point here is that, I have been called about every name in the book.
I have been talked over, down to, around and about. I've been yelled at
and was even a little slow ducking once, maybe twice,LOL. Some of these
people (not the ones who get physically abusive) are some of my best
friends. Some were drunks, some are intelligent people that just got
riled up, or misunderstood. The only time these things hurt us, is when
we let them hurt us, like me and my constant worry about being selfish.
If we shut down, if we let it get 'into' us then WE suffer for it, which
is what the abuser wanted to happen.

It takes time, patience and even practice, but when you can let the
verbal attacks go, take a couple deep breaths and when you speak, speak
with purpose and with dignity and without yelling back. This is not
only frustrating to the person trying to rile you , but with great
pleasure, I have found that what comes out of my mouth is usually the
right thing.

This is true in here, when posting too.

Anyway, I find the people who IM me for cypersex much more annoying than
anyone in here that I post with.

Happy posting all!

Well said Red, I couldn't say it any better. We may not agree on some
things but Like Jane you have a perspective on Life I do admire. There
are others here also that someday I would like to call friends, Religion
is a hot topic, as are several others and I enjoy debating with those I
wish to call friend.





G

WE ARE ALL CHILDREN OF ONE GOD, NO MATTER RELIGION, OR FAITH / CHURCH WE
DO UNTO OTHERS AS WE WOULD LIKE OTHERS TO RESPECT US AS A CHILD OF GOD.
I FEEL WE ALL HAVE OUR OWN BELEIFS AND ALL DESERVES RESPECT.

Christians and Catholics have their nut jobs, in the public eye,
screaming at the top of their lungs, wanting to be heard, to be noticed.
Some probably have mental health issues or substance abuse issues, and
who knows what else. These people have tarnished and jaded everyone's
immediate perception that everyone who is of that faith is as they are.
Corrupt and twisted leaders also add to that mix.

Most Christians and Catholics are peaceful and mind their own business,
quite happy and content in what brings them warmth, comfort and peace.
Regardless of what another thinks about the bible or the faith, they are
not all out to force their belief's onto other's. Be realistic and not
paint them all with the same brush.

While I don't know and don't claim to know every word in the bible, nor
can I say I completely understand or agree with everything written in
it.......aside from the bible and the many arguments and debates over
it's content's, Christians and Catholic's have contributed to societies
for thousands and thousands of years, in peaceful and giving manner's,
as human being's, not as a religious body. Lest we forget all the
postives.......

There are other religions, other than Christian and Catholic, that are
force feeding onto other's. Filing thousands and thousands and
thousands of complaints with the Canadian Human Right's Commission and
the court's, that their right's are being violated because they cannot
practice their religion in school or the workplace. Some people are so
consumed with being against the Christian or Catholic faith, other
religions with their Gods are being forced onto other's. One religion
even states it wants to turn the world into thier religion, that is
thier agenda. Yet we speak nothing about that.

People have the right to not believe in what other's do. There is
nothing wrong with that. What gives you peace, comfort and warmth is
what's important. Being adult's, we have that right, to believe or not.
Good grief.......no one can "force" us to do anything or to believe in
what we do not. In saying that, look around to what is going on in our
world. It is not the Christians or Catholics that are out to change the
world by force feeding anyone. Fanatics and extremists are everywhere
and have many names and many faces.

Look at your neighbor, look at your friends, your family,
yourself.....home is where the heart is. Do onto other's......

I don't come in here often but it is always nicer, when there are open
minded discussions.


Especially on religion and politics.

Isn't everything a belief or speculation anyway/


so why not have an open mind.


xxx Jane ditto on my end.

Very, very true girl......

I understand where your thoughts are in this topic. I agree with you
totally that we can not consider or judge the entire community of
Christian believers based on the outlandish ravings of some of those who
publicly disregard the rights, feelings and opinions of others. I think
in the US those who are filing complaints or whinning, as it was put,
are simply considered a pain. Mostly because they are not organized and
have no backing with regards to social or economic means. They can
complain but they, alone, will never change the laws.

HOWEVER, with all due respect to those of you who are peaceful and keep
to yourselves and have little to do with the rest of those who are out
there being in focus and quite vocal about their beliefs, I must
disagree with another train of thought.

I have grown up in a time filled with hate, bigotry and fear. A time
when powerful poeple of Christian belief stood up and very publicly
voiced their bigoted remarks and in front of the world many thousands,
over many years, with many figure heads, raged their hate in the
streets, in public. Where were all those quiet, gentle,
non-judgemental, Christians when all this hate was being spouted so
publicly? Why weren't these voiceful cries of bigotry stopped by
others of thier belief? Why was every public debate fought between
opposing sides without the aid of defence or even support from those of
the 'silent majority'. I think when you follow a faith, and you voice
the plea of , please don't judge me by the actions of others, that
perhaps, action is just what you should be judged on, or more acurately,
inaction.

Like a lawyer, I must put in, that I am not slinging mud at any of you
individually, I am just making a comment that shows why it is difficult
not to catagorize because; when you see injustice, the inaction of doing
nothing, becomes a display, a show of support for those who represent
you, even if it's only in laying claim to the same beliefs.

I actually do not judge any of you, I am just stating a case from the
'we' perspective as one group to another.

You are all lovely people in my opinion, just remember that inaction has
a voice too.

Seems as though the forum calls good conversation, and the ability to
air ones own opinions and beliefs...I try my best to not be judgemental,
yet we all must in some form or another judge what we choose to have in
our lives...at least.Would you agree?

Raised as a lowlife,who had more raw talent than his parents(step)
knew what to do with.. or how to hone, I basically have been
self-taught, as an adult...how to be an adult.

Religion,for me ,is a means to an end. In the end I want to love like I
have no fear. I also want to be loved the same. I have had life seem to
be running away from me, and I have been running away from it before
also.My religion tells me to do everything out of love.It is not for me
to judge anyone else beliefs as to right or wrong,,, Who am I to say? I
believe my God changed my misgivings and misfortunes profoundly...as
soon as I made the choice... I always found or find myself reading
proverbs or Paul... I take the pure-hearted good message and try to be
the best man that I can be.For out of the overflow of the heart, the
mouth speaks.

my understanding is that the earliest forms of religion definitely had a
feminine
diety at the top...but this was driven underground long ago and declared
pagan
or black worship by new movements that were lead by men...and it has
worked
rather well to that end..
but when you think of the inherent power of women as evidenced in their
ability to
be mother / life giver then it makes sense that a feminine being is of
the highest
order...what is more strong?..any persons belief in god...or a mothers
instinctive
love for her children...I dont think men possess that kind of instilled
ability to
love....unfortunately

While we cannot erase the past, we cannot live in the past. Nor can we
make people here and now pay for mistakes of those in the past. The
world needs to move forward, not remain in the past. It does no one any
good to do that. I do what I do on my own free will and own accord and
not always in response to the actions of another. If I jumped up and
down everytime someone was in the spotlight doing or saying something I
did not agree with, I would not have a career or a roof over my head.
While there is so much wrong in today's world, I do what I can, when I
can, when I am able and to me, every little bit can make a world of
difference.

One thing I enjoy here is the ability to debate, even if we don't
agree... and, even between freinds...

I think one reason the two longer based religions are most talked about
is because of thehistory behind them.

So many folks killed, and harmed, forced, and chased in the name of
"god" and organised religion...

I do understand not everyone does this, or did. But, the money backed
higher ups in religious history, driven by power hungry men to force
peoples to believe...

I read of whole ways of life destroyed. Imprisonment of scholars because
of the fear and ignorance by religious men...

From my own experiences, as well...

I have not come across anything that hasn't been disproved, or is still
being discovered.

Read "The Great Cosmic Mother"

I haven't gotten it, yet. Read through it, and am ordering it...

Science shows us the female role in DNA, and creation...

Does it surprise me that men have forever been using force to hinder
females because of the ignorance, and fear...? No... not at all...

*note: I am not a feminist, nor do I call anything my own. I have no
religion, nor do I want any. My beliefs are mine. Yet, from a history
far longer than my years...

anyway... Jane...?
love you for you, hon... that enough for me.=0)

I appreciate the comment's. I guess I have been confused and often
wondering. So many different people, so many different faith's and
belief's. And you're right Nene, the history of the two religions is
foremost. Corruption, greed and deceit has affected many and not just
christian or catholic faith's. I just wonder why they are the two that
are constantly being critized and flammed in today's world. Horrific
events in the past are still held against a people today, who were not
there, did not take part in those events or following and have lived
quite, peaceful lives with their faith and belief's, like many other's
of different religions or belief's.

Why is it that I can be told I am wrong, my faith is wrong, what I may
or may not believe in is wrong, untrue, false, stupid, not realistic?
Why can't I have the right or freedom to have what is important to me,
to have whatever faith or belief I want, without being told it's wrong
simply because another does not have the same faith or beliefs I do? I
would never dream of telling someone they are wrong, their faith or
belief is stupid or false, even when I don't understand it or accept it
as my way.

I just don't get it anymore. I just don't understand the intensity or
intent that goes beyond to disprove or discredit another's faith and
belief. Discussion and debate is great and I love to see that and
participate. I have always had a problem, with not listening, when
being told I am wrong and what I believe is wrong jsut because someone
thinks what they believe is "the" answer to everything. How does any one
person know? Who are any of us to say we are right and another is
wrong? I honestly don't believe any one person or group of persons can
do that. Again, I guess it comes back to what is important to each of
us, what brings us warmth, comfort and knowledge, the ability to learn
and understand from eachother.

Jane wrote..

I just don't get it anymore. I just don't understand the intensity or
intent that goes beyond to disprove or discredit another's faith and
belief. Discussion and debate is great and I love to see that and
participate. I have always had a problem, with not listening, when being
told I am wrong and what I believe is wrong just because someone
thinks what they believe is "the" answer to everything. How does any one
person know? Who are any of us to say we are right and another is wrong?
I honestly don't believe any one person or group of persons can do that.
Again, I guess it comes back to what is important to each of us, what
brings us warmth, comfort and knowledge, the ability to learn and
understand from each other.
*****************************************************************

Jane, if I have learned nothing else in this lifetime, I have
learned...."All I know, is all I know, and what is right for me now, is
right for me now,"...... but in ten years time, it may be wrong for
me....

the beauty of learning...

No one person can tell another they are wrong, in their personal
beliefs...even in the most appositional position from you...they can be
wrong in information, but not in beliefs, opinions or ideas.

That is what makes us unique, what you believe makes you Jane...what I
believe makes me Lee, and so on and so forth..no wrongs, only right for
you, right for me...

Jess, got to the comment before I could make it - darn time zones.

I can add to it though as I think I understand some of the problem you
face, Jane, and not just you, there are others who feel as you do.
I've stated in a few posts that there are over 230,000 different sects
large enough to be accounted for worldwide. Why are they different,
interpretation. Now here's the big thing, there are those who interpret
and they are skilled in the ability to 'sell'. So they 'sell' their
interpretation to some folks, Christian or other, and a new sect begins
to form. It could be a couple very small issues, like - do we dunk to
baptize or do we sprinkle holy water?

Then there are those Christians who do not assimilate all and every part
of a particular sect. The reasons are their own, often they have,
themselves, interpreted based of questions, research and thier own
understanding. In this world of over 230,000 recognizably different
sects, the only ones who consider one sect less Christian than another
are the sects themselves. To everyone else, to me, they are all
Christians.

In the posts, there are those who think they know what Christians are
supposed to believe, this can not be so and they have no right to
'change' or 'belittle' or infer in any way that you or anyone is not a
Christian or is a Christian in the wrong. This is why, you get
upset, this is why you shut down. There are several of us who do not
take a stand on your individual beliefs - at least not in the way
described above.

You are you, you know what you know, believe as you do - for now anyway.
We all grow through "good" conversation, through our experiences. I
just hope you continue to have more experiences in these posts. There
are those with whom it's just not worth the discussion - so ignore them.
Respond only as you want to. No one of any consequence to a good post
will think any less of you for doing so.

As I was reading on this post the same thing kept popping into my head.
I could apply it to several different posts here, however I think that
you will see what I mean as I progress with my ideas.

As I was raised in a religious family one of the things I was taught
most was Tolerance or to be tolerant of another persons beliefs and the
way they deal with things in thier own way.

This is very hard at times to practice. I find people who are of
religious faith and preach at the top of thier lungs to be rude and
insulting. On more than one occasion I hear these so-called
evangelists/preachers telling us how everyone needs to be patient and
Tolerant of others, yet the next time I hear them they are preaching
they are the Only ones who follow the correct path.

When these people create the following they have, I have to believe the
followers are sheep. They blindly accept and gossip about the beliefs in
the right to practice religion anyway they see fit. This is one of the
reasons I have brought out some of my feelings on religious/spiritual
rights.


Tolerance is not just a Christian belief, it is a belief of almost every
walk of life. It is those that are not tolerant of others beliefs that
seem to be the pushiest. I wonder if by thier own actions they are
trying to cover up the Lack of Tolerance they have? Ask yourself this
question the next time someone tells you your opinion is worthless of
that it is wrong.

Red asks why this silent majority sits around and does nothing. To be
honest with you why would I attach myself to one of these so-called
religious leaders? Simple answer, I won't, for the most part the silent
majority knows that argueing with these so-called leaders would get us
nowhere. As I have said before the whiners get the most attention,
however those who hear them will do one of two things. Turn off the
noise or quietly through thier own way make sure thier point is made to
those who matter.

This is where I seperate myself from religion, I believe to be spiritual
is far more rewarding and insightful than any religion I have searched.
I consider myself part of the silent Majority and Moral Majority only in
certain Ideals.


I choose to post my opinions and argue my point here hoping that one or
two of you will see that even those who are silent have the same views
as those who Feel they are alone.





G

Jane Bond, don't let what people say get to you. Most of them
are closed minded and don't know any better. By doing what they
do, all they prove is their just another wana be and thats all.
So take care, god bless.

yes its a place for discredit... haha jk

actually i would say its an area that you can ask questions, and share
beliefs.. like if say you're atheist and you don't know but want to
know mroe about buddhist beliefs you can post a topic, or if you're
christian and want to know main differences between christianity and
judaism, or say you just have a topic like original sin you'd ilke to
see the differt answers of the specturm... its all for information ...
bc it is good to question things

Hi Jane. It isn't so bad in here. You know me. Vocal, vocal. Or would
that be; fingers, fingers? Anyway, for the most part, it gets miutely
rowdy. Not bad though. I have seen many here have intelligent and well
though out opinions.
I mean, that's what they are really...opinions.

I am cool with it all as long as the words "lies and foolish, and...well
anyway.

Come on in. The waters fine.
Kat

God Knows!!! He does not judge us by where we go to church, our friends,
money race or what ever. Religion groups give us people to share our
belives with,to praise God toegther,and to share our needs.All church
groups do this.. I believe in the Bible and I live by it more
spiritually within myself I search for more understanding. I believe
that understanding our travels throw life is growing in the Grace of
God. So to Draw
closer to God ...search your heart for that is what God will judge you
by..Follow Your Heart.