Thanks Sky.

And JB....Who made these so called 'Laws'?

I choose to step outside of the arrogance and ego of humankind, and it's history of must bes..and has to bes... and Laws, and garbage that we adhere to.

A dog doesn't fuss and bother on what may be a 'law' and what may not be... a dolphin doesn't give a rats razoo about 'Laws' of anything.

Applied is about as good as it gets... and these sorts of repetitive discussions seem to be nothing more than circle jerks that go round and round with two people deciding they have the edge on EVERYTHING, and they are the ONLY people who have the EXPERT evidence.......

it gets boring after a while...

That is sooooo good! I can’t stop laughing!

Hey, I wanted a bicycle that year – and it was me or you.

My will is freer than your will! Nyah!

Jess with the attitude said:


Well hummmmm.... was it me? I don't remember exactly.

Who ever manifested this holographic reality I guess.

So how can you type with such absolutes?

How can you be so sure...your way... the arrival you came to...is the ONLY one?

( The attitude is of frustration... just kick me up the arse, and poke fun of me... I do.. )

>>>Hey, I wanted a bicycle that year – and it was me or you

*grinning like a mule eating briars*

The only thing I am certain of is that I exist. Everything else is just opinion.

I always assume my opinion is correct until I discover it is not. Then I change my opinion.

I have changed my opinions often and my core belief often.

I speak and type with such absolutes because I am confident.

If I am wrong and I discover proof that I am wrong I will change my opinions.

At this point I believe this reality is holographic in its structure and is made up of energy and information in the form of waves which manifest as light and sound and matter.

We created it.

In my own personal experience, I have actually attained greater conviction in my own beliefs because of opposing arguments. And in fact, I’ve often had interesting and valuable realizations in the second or third or fourth or fifth “round” of a discussion.

It’s the different viewpoints that make it interesting and valuable to me. But I do agree that the exact same argument over and over can be boring.

>>>
So how can you type with such absolutes?

How can you be so sure...your way... the arrival you came to...is the ONLY one?

( The attitude is of frustration... just kick me up the arse, and poke fun of me... I do..wink )
flowerforyou

I think a persons strength of conviction varies according to personality. My own is like tissue paper on all but a few issues. After expressing an opinion, which I think much of this stuff is, I'll often ask the the reader not to take what I say too seriously. God knows I don't. Still, you have to admit, ya gotta stand somewhere.

"A dog doesn't fuss and bother on what may be a 'law' and what may not be... a dolphin doesn't give a rats razoo about 'Laws' of anything."

That's true. But a dog or dolphin isn't able to consider things like cause and effect the way we can. It's our blessing and curse.

"I choose to step outside of the arrogance and ego of humankind, and it's history of must bes..and has to bes... and Laws, and garbage that we adhere to."

Actually, in Buddhism (as a way of life, rather than as a religion), this is the critical first step on the path to enlightenment. It's sometimes referred to as "don't know mind." Not easy, for me anyway.

It's only my opinion, but I don't think you should sell yourself short and I'm not just blowing smoke up your ass- those are valid and insightful viewpoints.

A dog or dolphin may not be able to consider cause and effect as we can............says who?

Is that from human perception... if we do not have a verbal or written form of communication, then it is less evolved more primitive?

I see instinctual cause and effect with animals... (if instinctual is even a fair word to use)...I experience the inherant wisdom of the animus world all the time.... and dolphins are so much more highly conscious, aware, than us microbial morons will ever be capable of...as seen through my filters...

It is so difficult to relinquish, "the top of the food chain, top of the heap" mentality, when it comes to our human ness..however, I feel we are only superior in our destructive invasive arrogant natures...and are far from the top of the heap in EVERYTHING else.

Adaptability is relative... and I feel our trophies of adaptation are almost shameful.

I didn't mean to imply that I believe we are any better (or worse) than other animals- just different. Also, I don't think we are more evolved than other animals. All species have evolved along their particular paths to wherever they happen to be at the moment. In fact, I don't care much for the term "highly evolved."

I was just pointing out what I believe to be true, that other animals don't have the capacity to consider the possible consequences of various actions and then choose among them before acting. I may be wrong.

I would completely agree that it is impossible for us to thoroughly know what it's like to be a dog or a dolphin, or even each other as humans, as far as that goes. I've brought this topic up with my dog, Abu, on many occasions. He aint talking. :)

A prayer: "God, help me become the person my dog thinks I am." anon

....something you wanted to add?

Yes. Sorry, above. Still trying to get the hang of posting here. :)

Hi Joad,...thanks for that.

Cause and effect... purposeful intention...

A simple example...electric fence.... new horse tests the wire... zap! steps or shys away from it.... eyes it warily.... sniffs the air...

then chases the other new horse into the wire... seems to look like cause, effect, decision and intention...to me.

Surfing with dolphins... they show cause and effect all the time... and show decision making...

We agree that animals exhibit cause and effect. I think all of nature does. I could even be persuaded that animals act with intent. I just don't think they are capable of "reflecting" on the fact that they are participating in cause and effect or acting with with intent. It might sound like I'm trying to weasel out with a minor distinction, but I think it's an important one.

Shall we agree to disagree on the minor points?



Thankyou, I enjoy hearing other views....

Perhaps without 'person-alising' your dog.... and other animals... you may notice how purposeful, reflective and meditative they are...?

or I need medicating...

Thanks for being thought provoking. And I'm all about reconciliation. :)

joad said:
I believe that is a very important distinction. Possibly the most important one. "Reflecting" is an excellent word for it. I phrase it a little differently though.

I call it the difference between being "aware" and being "aware that you are aware".

There is no doubt that everything science labels as "living" is "aware". Plants are aware of light and moisture. Single celled microorganisms exhibit awareness of their environment.

The question is, which of these "living" things is aware of their awareness.

My own opinion is that that ability is what sets man apart from the animals.

I read something once about how the human consciousness has changed since the biblical times. If you will notice when you read old scripture, it speaks of things that happened. It tells stories of events. The way the actually writing is composed it does not show any evidence of personal opinion or give meanings to things from the personal perspective of the author.

It was said that humans were basically "unconscious" in those times compared to now. I mean, they were walking around, but they did not think the same way we do today. Their thinking was more primitive. I am sure that there were a few individuals who were more aware back then, but most everyone else were quite primitive in the way they thought.

Now how people of today, who are much more aware can place so much importance on the writings of men in a time when they were quite unaware and almost unconscious really baffles me. Are there still people who need to hear a story with a moral in order to derive meaning from something? Apparently so.

But I prefer the modern more conscious thinking and writing of today where people's feeling and opinions are not a guessing game and truth can be written and spoken and understood without a nice little story with a moral.

There is a lot of wisdom in the spiritual books written today that far outshines ancient history and scripture.

I don't think that laws of physics should be applied to life.

In physics, from what I can tell, the law of cause and effect is special case of a master theory which doesn't exist yet. I think it is in loose analogy thermodynamics. The cause and effect relationships come from classical theories. I doubt whether such a thing can be maintained anymore.

About life, I am not sure. It seems that my past is an aid, source of tools, but in no way a determinant. People make up meaning between points, moments that they remeber. When they project a law of 'I have to do it, it is now a thing' it may be a problem, or at least is in my experience. Our minds do not predict nature as well as it does, if it does, so thinking of acting in this or that way, is really a tough gig to play.