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| Topic: Many believe that there is | |
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So if we appeal to Occam's razor then Pantheism wins the day. It's the simplest explantion: There is only one God and we are it. Not possible. A god would have to be the first cause. We are all finite, therefore we couldn't have created ourselves. We are born, we live and we die. Your simple explanation just creates more questions. If we were a perfect god, why would we create the universe? Why would we take on these forms? Nope, sorry, that explanation isn't simple. It's actually multiplying the entities, which if you respected logic or science, you would acknowledge that it violates Occam's razor. |
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Maikuru wrote: . Who or what said that there had to be a creator or creators? Why do we constantly try to give a form of personality, an ego or human like quality to something in order to give ourselves a sense of security that this is all planned out and everything is really under someone else's control? What is wrong with accepting that there is choas in the universe? Does everything need a reason or plan? When do we realize that the plan maybe is that there is no plan? My parents came to me when i was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes because it was part of "God's" plan. My father even tryed to convince me that "God" was punishing me for something i had done or would later do. It didn't take me long to realize that was a load of bull. I personally don't need some form of reassurance to convince myself that things are under control. I find more peace in accepting who and what i am is not because of somebody's grand scheme but because it just is. I can handle that and that is all i need to deal with what i can not explain or understand completely. Let me put it another way. Stories seem to work best so i will go that route. There once was a zen master who was preparing to pass on. He looked through his pupils to see who was best suited to take his place as head of the temple. He narrowed his options down to two. One was a very bright and intelligent leader. The other was a devoted monk of many years and acted as the temple's cook. The master decided to test them with a simple koan to determine who would succeed him. He has them bring a table in and place a glass half filled with water on it. He then had them enter individually to test them. He had the intelligent leader come in first. He pointed at the glass and said what is this? The pupil took a few minutes to ponder the koan. He then turned to the master and said," It is that which is before us in this existence and we must acknowledge it and try to understand it." The master released him and had the cook come in. He then posed the same koan to him. The cook looked at the glass only a second. He then grasped it, drank the water and threw the glass out of the temple. As he turned to leave he told the master," That is it." and left. Now i leave you all with a koan of your own. Who did the master choose to succed him and why?  . Are you trying to make us believe you are a zen master? |
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Edited by
Abracadabra
on
Fri 12/05/08 04:22 PM
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So if we appeal to Occam's razor then Pantheism wins the day. It's the simplest explantion: There is only one God and we are it. Not possible. A god would have to be the first cause. We are all finite, therefore we couldn't have created ourselves. We are born, we live and we die. Your simple explanation just creates more questions. If we were a perfect god, why would we create the universe? Why would we take on these forms? Nope, sorry, that explanation isn't simple. It's actually multiplying the entities, which if you respected logic or science, you would acknowledge that it violates Occam's razor. This has nothing to do with science. This has to do with you limiting your own imagination. You say that we are finite. Where do you come up with that? What is it that is finite? You can't point to anything and claim that it's finite. Everything is energy, all energy does is change form. What you preceive to be finite is nothing more than a fleeting form of energy changing. Nothing is finite. Nothing can be finite in the concept of all being one. So your objections stem from your own restrictions of thought. You're still thinking that you are a finite individual. At long as you have that attitude you'll never understand spirit. You need to realize that you're more than just a sack of atoms before you can understand why you are not finite. Even the sack of atoms that you think you are is not finite. It's just a wave in the infinite sea of energy. Your arguments are archaic and belong in the Newtonian era. That's not a judgment, it's just a fact. You're arguing in terms of Newtonian absolutes and pretending that things are finite. But they aren't. And modern physics has come to recognize this. Nothing is finite Spider. What you preceive to be finite is just a fleeting energy pattern. There is nothing finite about it. |
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All matter and energy is finite. Surely you have heard of entropy?
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All matter and energy is finite. Surely you have heard of entropy? I taught entropy. Where does entropy demand that anything be finite? It doesn't. I don't know where you come up with this stuff, but no one has ever determined whether the universe is finite or infinite. In fact, those very terms are ambigious because mathematically speaking it can actually be both simultaneously. It can be finite in some ways and infinite in others. Ever hear of Grabrial's horn in mathematics? It a mathematical concept that has to do with integral calculus. It's just a horn-shaped object. Or if you turn it vertically with the mouth up you can think of it as a horn-shaped bucked. If you calculate the interal surface area you will determine that it has infinite surface area. Yet if you calculate the volume of the horn you will come up with a finite number. Therefore even though you could never paint the infinite inside walls you can still fill the horn with a finite amount of paint. It is a paradox? Not really, it's resolved by the formal definition of the Calculus Limit which is used to define the meaning of the integral. None the less, it shows that mathematical concepts of the infinite and finite are indeed ambigious. So your constant harping on the idea of the universe is finite, and God is infinite is equally ambiguious. |
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you and I do not know the answer to this question,
YES - the more beer you drink the more logical your argument becomes....... whoever or whatever made it possible for us to be here, left 1 important piece of the puzzle out. therefore with out this missing piece to the puzzle, we will never know how we were created. you can have faith, logic, no faith, whatever, just be good to everyone and all will work itself out in the end. -use things, not people- |
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What the heck was that James? I read that and wondered if I was still reading the English language
 I am just accepting the facts that I will never know these answers to what is beyond our human life forms. What started us I will not know? How it all began, I will not know? If there are many gods or one god, I will not know. What I do know is I know how to laugh and feel good in this short lifespan. So I will take advantage of that. |
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I am just accepting the facts that I will never know these answers to what is beyond our human life forms. What started us I will not know? How it all began, I will not know? If there are many gods or one god, I will not know. Well like Zaphodbebleebrox says, you just need to drink more beer.  |
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Trust me I love my beer. I am German
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you and I do not know the answer to this question, YES - the more beer you drink the more logical your argument becomes....... whoever or whatever made it possible for us to be here, left 1 important piece of the puzzle out. therefore with out this missing piece to the puzzle, we will never know how we were created. you can have faith, logic, no faith, whatever, just be good to everyone and all will work itself out in the end. -use things, not people- I think that is the best thing I have heard all day. Thank you for the wisdom wise one 
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Fri 12/05/08 06:46 PM
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In Greek mythology there were many gods, though I have to agree with sweetnsassyntall on this one  yet mythology was at one time a religion that was taking seriously at its time. It is perhaps they became a mythology for they have lost their empires at the time to discontinue their belief system. What are your thoughts on this? Mythology came about , as a result of man trying to reach up and understand God and the mysteries of life. Same with religion. (And btw.... God saw the hearts of those searching even wayyy back then(and God revealed Himself to those who sought him with a sincere heart. You see.... Jesus is ALSO known as The WORD... and the WORD was with God.... and the WORD IS God...... and the WORD(Jesus) Was and Is... even from the very Foundations of the world. Jesus has always been, even BEFORE he came in the flesh. So yes... God saw and knew the hearts of those who were seeking God... even BEFORE Christ came...and remembered them. When Jesus rose from the grave, he took also with him to heaven , all those whose hearts were turned towards God..... before Christ came in the flesh. Now today, since Jesus has already now come in the flesh...... the way today to God is made clear .... thru Jesus and His Word.... and for those Who seek God with a sincere heart, God will reveal Himself to them also. God now has sent us Jesus His Son.... and Jesus is the result of God soooooo loving ALL Mankind.... .... that He not only reached down towards all mankind, but also came to dwell with mankind. And now since Jesus rose again, He still wants to dwell with man.... by way of man' heart ... but can only come by way of invitation ... and will not intrude otherwise... but will patiently wait for an invitation from man... so He can come in and sup with man... Whom He Loves. Jesus is for all... and crosses the line of every mythology and every religion.... simply because... Jesus is not about mythology or religion at all .... and never has been. Jesus is about the WAY back for mankind to come back into Fellowship and Relationship with Our Loving Heavenly Father... and live Forever with God Once more..... The way God meant for Mankind to live all along....... even before the fall. God Misses His Creation(Humanity).... and Wants Us All to Come Home!!!  |
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In Greek mythology there were many gods, though I have to agree with sweetnsassyntall on this one yet mythology was at one time a religion that was taking seriously at its time. It is perhaps they became a mythology for they have lost their empires at the time to discontinue their belief system. What are your thoughts on this? Mythology came about , as a result of man trying to reach up and understand God and the mysteries of life. Same with religion. (And btw.... God saw the hearts of those searching even wayyy back then(and God revealed Himself to those who sought him with a sincere heart. You see.... Jesus is ALSO known as The WORD... and the WORD was with God.... and the WORD IS God...... and the WORD(Jesus) Was and Is... even from the very Foundations of the world. Jesus has always been, even BEFORE he came in the flesh. So yes... God saw and knew the hearts of those who were seeking God... even BEFORE Christ came...and reembered them. When Jesus rose from the grave, he took also with him to heaven , all those whose hearts were turned towards God..... before Christ came in the flesh. Now today, since Jesus has already now come in the flesh...... the way today to God is made clear .... thru Jesus and His Word.... and for those Who seek God with a sincere heart, God will reveal Himself to them also. God now has sent us Jesus His Son.... and Jesus is the result of God soooooo loving ALL Mankind.... .... that He not only reached down towards all mankind, but also came to dwell with mankind. And now since Jesus rose again, He still wants to dwell with man.... by way of man' heart ... but can only come by way of invitation ... and will not intrude otherwise... but will patiently wait for an invitation from man... so He can come in and sup with man... Whom He Loves. Jesus is for all... and crosses the line of every mythology and every religion.... simply because... Jesus is not about mythology or religion at all .... and never has been. Jesus is about the WAY back for mankind to come back into Fellowship and Relationship with Our Loving Heavenly Father... and live Forever with God Once more..... The way God meant for Mankind to live all along....... even before the fall. God Misses His Creation(Humanity).... and Wants Us All to Come Home!!! That was beautiful written. A poet with much passion and wisdom. Thank you 
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I taught entropy. Where does entropy demand that anything be finite? It doesn't. James, this is me you are talking to. I don't buy your bull. If our universe were allowed to continue, the entire universe would be entropy. If mater weren't finite, then that would mean that entropy didn't apply to it. |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Fri 12/05/08 07:28 PM
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you and I do not know the answer to this question, YES - the more beer you drink the more logical your argument becomes....... whoever or whatever made it possible for us to be here, left 1 important piece of the puzzle out. therefore with out this missing piece to the puzzle, we will never know how we were created. you can have faith, logic, no faith, whatever, just be good to everyone and all will work itself out in the end. -use things, not people- God did NOT create Man ... just to leave man in the Dark..... forever just GUESSING about God!!! NO!!!! God Made a WAY for man to KNOW GOD!!! God made a way for man...... to not only KNOW GOD.... but to ALSO have RELATIONSHIP and FELLOWSHIP with GOD!!! GOD Already Made a WAY for Man to Have COMMUNICATION with Him!!!
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Fri 12/05/08 07:11 PM
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"...whoever or whatever made it possible for us to be here,
left 1 important piece of the puzzle out....." The Puzzle has ALL the pieces there... nothing missing atall... just gotta seek and find. See... God won't push Himself on Anyone to Know Him... cause God is a respecter of Man's Free Will.... and it would actually go against God's Word...... to force Himself on any of us to know Him. ONLY THOSE WHO SEEK GOD WITH THEIR WHOLE HEART ARE THOSE WHO WILL FIND GOD !!!! BECAUSE THAT IS WHEN GOD WILL REVEAL HIMSELF TO MAN...... WHEN HE SEES MAN SEEKING AFTER HIM WITH HIS WHOLE HEART!!! ANYONE HERE HUNGRY ENOUGH?? THIRSTY ENOUGH? TO REALLY WANT TO KNOW THE TRUE AND LIVING GOD ? You See.... God KNOWS ...... that UNTIL Man is truly Hungry and Thirsty , Man won't Eat or Drink.  |
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Edited by
MorningSong
on
Fri 12/05/08 07:22 PM
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Know what happens when we eat too much junk food... and not enough nourishing food? We loose our appetite for healthy nourishing food, and instead ,prefer junk food. BUT...when we start eating healthy nourishing food, we lose our appetite for junk food, and instead, start desiring healthy nourishing food. Same applies to the spirit .
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Know what happens when we eat too much junk food... and not enough nourishing food? We loose our appetite for healthy nourishing food, and instead ,prefer junk food. BUT...when we start eating healthy nourishing food, we lose our appetite for junk food, and instead, start desiring healthy nourishing food. Same applies to the spirit . Now that is brilliantly written. Love it! |
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Edited by
zaphodbebleebrox
on
Sat 12/06/08 12:15 AM
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smiless, did not Gabriel do the same thing as you ? a angel that was an agent provocateur ? when things got slow, Gabriel's hand reached in to stir the pot ? keep the masses mis-directed so they will not notice the truth ? angels are not always dressed in white satin with fluffy wings. ;) |
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smiless, did not Gabriel do the same thing as you ? a angel that was an agent provocateur ? when things got slow, Gabriel's hand reached in to stir the pot ? keep the masses mis-directed so they will not notice the truth ? angels are not always dressed in white satin with fluffy wings. ;) Zaphodbebleebrox... perhaps I am just misunderstanding your post above, which is directed towards Smiless. We all Love Smiless here.... and know that he is NOT one to try and "keep the masses mis-directed so they will not notice the truth ". Sorry you feel that way ,Zaphodbebleebrox. |
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Edited by
zaphodbebleebrox
on
Sat 12/06/08 08:00 AM
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morningsong, watch Constantine with Keanu Reeves.........
its nothing against smiless - i have no clue who he / she is its just that smiless started the topic knowing there would be MUCH discussion, check back to reference about the angel Gabriel, u do understand the angel Gabriel, right ..... ????? |
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