I have a yahoo group that I got this from.

"In the absence of the sacred, nothing is sacred -- everything is for sale."
--Oren Lyons, ONONDAGA

The Elders often say that when something is sacred it has spiritual value. You'll hear, on the Earth there are sacred spots. You'll hear, our ceremonies are sacred, our children are sacred, marriage is sacred. When something is sacred it means it's so holy you can't attach a value to it. Therefore, it's not for sale. It's an insult to suggest buying something sacred. On the other hand, if we look at it differently, as there is no sacred land, ceremonies are not sacred, our children are not sacred, etc., then everything is for sale. Sacredness creates spiritual space. Sacredness makes things holy. Sacredness shows respect for God.

I've always felt that, either everything is sacred, or nothing is sacred.

I think one place where people go wrong is in thinking that for something to be 'sacred' it needs to be treated with 'somber respect'.

Yet from my point of view, as soon as your become 'somber' about something you've already shown great disrespect for it.

I believe that 'Childliness' is next to Godliness. Children don't get somber about things.

Is sex sacred?

Should you only have somber sex?

I don't think it's necessary to become somber about something in order to appreciate that it's sacred.

I also don't associate whether an item can be bought or sold to have anything at all to do with whether or not it's 'sacred'.

I bought the athames that I plan on using for my divine ceremonies to praise the Goddess and God. Does the fact that I bought these items with money mean that they aren't sacred items?

To me, money doesn't even exist. It's a farce. People put far too much emphasis on money as though it is something in its own right.

To me, money is just a convenient means of barter.

If we lived in a culture where there was no money we'd still do things for each other. We'd each make the things that we are good at making and then just swap them with other people for the skills or crafts they are good at.

In an ideal society no one bothers to keep track and eveyone just naturally gives as much as they receive.

What we've done with money is just use it as a way of keeping tabs on who's giving and who's receiving. We no longer trust each other to give as much as we receive.

We use money because we no longer trust each other. People would just take, take, take, and never give anything back.

Just the same, I wouldn't use money as a standard for sacredness. Just because I can buy or sell something doesn't mean that it can't also be sacred.

Christian book stores have no problem charging money for their sacred Bibles.

You can't just walk into a jewelry store and come out with a crucifix or a pentagram pendant without dropping some bills on the counter first.

Does that mean that these items aren't sacred?

I don't think money has anything to do with it, and I don't think somberness has anything to do with it either.

To me, for something to be sacred all it needs to be is truly appreciated.

If I can truly appreciate wild and crazy sex, then for me, wild and crazy sex is sacred.

If I can truly appreciate an athame that I paid $50 for, then to me, that athame is sacred.

If I can call upon a Goddess and giggle and laugh with Her about how I've screwed up my life, and then ask Her if She might consider helping me out. Then that communiqué is sacred, even though it wasn't somber.

Childliness is next to Godliness.

It has nothing to do with money or being somber. It has to do with appreciation.

It has to do with being grateful.

If you can be grateful with a laugh and a smile, then that is sacred.

And money has nothing to do with it.

Just my thoughts for whatever they're worth.

For something to be sacred it does have to be treated differently. You actually agreed with this except that you called it "appreciation" instead of "somberness".

Your athame was not sacred as the item that was for sale. It became sacred because you appreciated it as such. Items that are sacred can be sold by those who produce them (i.e. amulets, bibles, etc) because of the fact that they put effort and materials into making them. However, they do not actually become sacred until a person appreciates them as being such.

This is why it is recommended to cleanse and consecrate your items you use for ritual. Just as Catholic priests bless articles such as rosaries. They are just items until they are appreciated as sacred.

Shouldn't we appreciate everything?

Well, I guess when I take a dump, I might appreciate the fact that I had a great bowel movement. But it's true that I don't appreciate the product of that action.

Turds are not sacred IMHO.



This is true. It's also true that everything I own is not sacred to me. I tend to be a pack rat and I have a lot of stuff I probably don't appreciate much.

Although, having said that, I often find that I'm grateful to have this junk laying around when I do need it.

It's hard to be in constant appreciation of a tool that only comes in handy once every 2 or 3 years. But when it does come in handy, it's much appreciated.

I've actually thought about this kind of thing quite often. My sister is always yelling at me for being a pack rat. And one time she was here suggesting I should get rid of some stuff. It was summertime, she was telling me I should sell my snowblower!

Excuse me!

A snowblower may be a turd in the summer, but it's sacred in the winter.

A rototiller is just the opposite.

This is one problem with living in a place where the summers and winters are so drastically different. You really need to live two lives.

I suppose in religious terms most people wouldn't think of either a snowblower or a rototiller as being 'sacred' because they don't seem to have anything to do with 'religion'.

Well excuse me for being a pagan. They both have to do with MOTHER EARTH in some way or another. And Earth is my Goddess.

But thanks for reminding me. I really need to go through all my junk and toss out everything that isn't sacred.

That's going to be hard because as a pack rat I can always find an excuse to make things sacred.

I think the appreciation we have those items in our life that perform a function or make our life easier or more enjoyable is different from the appreciation we feel for those items we consider to be sacred.

It's kind of like using the word "love". I say I love my children. I also love ice cream. Same word, big difference of emotion behind it.

I see what you are saying. I guess I'm just not into labeling things.

I'm kind of like Jess Lee. Why label things as being sacred or not?

Just be.

But I do know what you mean. I wouldn't use my athame to carve a turkey.

Then again, maybe I would.

The damn thing is really sharp!

But no, I wouldn't go comparing family or loved ones with a rototiller. Unless, of course, they're willing to dig up the garden by hand.

I gave birth to three children thinking they would do chores and take care of me. Boy was I wrong.

Well, my cat is sacred to me, it would really hurt to give her away. But I have developed an allergy, and if it turns out to be to the cat I might be forced to do it. It probably is a matter of priority. What is more sacred, my cat or my health?

Depends on your definition of sacred. As far as importance I believe your health is more important than the cat. Maybe there is an allergy medicine you can take to help you?

No, I've tried quite a few of them already. As of yet, nothing worked. The GP suggested getting rid of the cat though.

she has been sharing my life for 4 years now, and I suffer for the last 3 of them, so perhaps I'll have no choice in the matter.

Well they certainly should!

You brought them into this world!

Or do that hold that against you.

My father died when I was 9.

I took care of my mother my entire life, even in the face of being called a 'mommy's boy'.

I would have made a good, John Boy, on the Waltons I guess. I'm very family oriented.

I lived with my mother for much of my life, simply because it made sense for both of us.

Even when I moved out I would visit her often to mow her lawn and fix her runny toilet.

Later when she got old I had her move in with me. I took care of her the last 6 years of her life. The last 3 years being almost 24/7 care. I quit my job and everything just to be home with her so I didn't have to put her in a home.

I'd still be caring for her today if she hadn't conked out on me.

She was 90. It was said to see her go.

Family is everything.

I'm a family man, and I always have been. Unfortunately I never got a family of my own.

What an oxymoron.

I'm 'the one who got away'.

Only I wasn't even trying to run.

Some women were pretty stupid. They would say, "Oh you live with your mother? Goodbye!"

No, I don't live with my mother!

She lives with me!

There's a DIFFERENCE!

Oh, never mind.

I have lived with my parents all my life. But at one point I decided to help them buy the house we are in now, I took care of my mother til the day she died. My dad and I are now roommates. Problem is, he still won't let me be the adult I truly grew to be without him and my mother. Our beliefs and ideas differ greatly. He has many issues with my ideals and how I deal with things. He is constantly questioning me or trying to fix me so I fit into his point of view of what an adult is. It causes us to fight all the time. What I hate most is when people tell me to take care of him better, or when someone tells my sister or my brother to tell me to take care of my dad and help him more. It was the same way when my mother was alive. Truth of the matter is, when people say that, they truly don't know what I have done for them and they don't know how much I have sacrificed so that I could care for my family on a daily basis. Even though they would not give me the same help, I gave it to them and still do. My friend kept telling me to leave, but I loved them and I found myself backing out everytime. There is a certian amount of negative mentality that happens when you live with parents as long as I have, especially with parents who would not let me be myself or listen to me when I had something substantial to say. I grew up without them, you get ignored enough, you find other ways of moving on. I think you did all right taking care of your mom. You loved her, and you took care of her, that is an awesome thing. I feel yu where the relationship thing is concerned, guys hear I live with my dad and they turn into buttheads. They have no respect for my dad as if I live with him but they can still come over any time they want and stay over. That does not go well with my dad at all. It has been hell on my relationships and caused way too many problems. anways.

What is sacred except for hard-work and intent? Ceremonies, children, marriage... all these things require effort, time, resources. Sacredness doesn't create a spiritual space, you create a spiritual space through focus and repetition.

And I also wouldn't say that things that are sacred are for sale. It's not that these things can just be bought from us. But they can be taken. It isn't thievery that we fear, but loss.

Appreciation, not idolization, is perhaps the best way to show respect for god. Not to mention it lets her/him know that they're doing a good job, and to keep it up.