Iran claims they witheld information regarding their nuclear facilities
because the IAEA leaked confidential and sensitive information. They
also claim the UN and the US are bullying them and they are afraid of
being attacked by the US and Israel for uranium enrichment in low levels
suitable for generating nuclear power.

Iran has violated past sanction's and committments they agreed to so why
would the UN continue to impose yet more sanctions?

OK Jane,

Truly with all due respect and without any trace of prejudice,

"Your slip is showing!!!" .

I would just like to point out that you appear to be asking a question
to which you already have the answer.

To your question: "... Iran has violated past sanction's and
committments they agreed to so why would the UN continue to impose yet
more sanctions?"

Can your answer be anything other than NO!

Since your question's leading statement condemns Iran of having violated
'past alleged' sanctions, why would they be expected to respect them
now, and thus what's the point of imposing more sanctions, that 'they'
(alleged by your leading statement) WOULDN'T RESPECT!!!

If I'm mistaken (I often am), I apologize, and simply ask you to
re-phrase your question, leaving out those most obvious leading
statements.

... Of course this is a sincere invitation to debate a VERY interesting
and extremely sensitive WORLD 'situation' that you are bringing up,
which SHOULD BE of great concern to all citizens of this planet!!!

While waiting for your reply, and because this is a huge topic, I'll
invite the two of us to take a step back, and approach this thing from
an objective perspective! (no sides as to whom the good or bad guys are
beforehand)

... and before getting to the objective perspective and argument, I
suggest of bit of counter balancing rhetoric is of essence.

With that in mind, I'll offer a metaphor (puerely invented and
allegorical fabricatrion alluding to teh situation we are delaing with,
....along with a sarcastic twist) to help install some distance (step
way back) from our respective 'biases'.

Here's the metaphor

A Mafia Boss (US) (Mafia Boss here is just a figure of speech, and not
meant to insult the most repspectful Italian WORLD Community), walks
into a small neighborhood 'Pastry Shop' (Iran).

The M Boss is accompanied by a veritable judicial batallion of Judges
and 'law enforcement' officials, all on the M Boss 'payroll' (the UN,
IAEA, the NPT office, US, British and Israel armed forces on the ready).

The M Boss's alleged accusations to mobilize such impressive law
enforcement display, is that this 'everyday' pastry shop, is allegedly
"planning" to make some doughnuts in the backroom, and "planning" to
MAYBE sell them 'taxless' to customers, family and friends (atomic
program, with the alleged intent (enriched uranium) to make and use the
A bomb, in tdirect violation of the NPT).

Imagine, a 'Mafia Boss' shocked and concerned about an alledged tax
evasion scheme from the backroom of our small neighborhood pastry
shop!!!

Why should we ask, would a Mafia Boss go to such EXTREME lenghts to
bring down an otherwise relatively inoffensive (even if they bark a lot,
Iran IS de facto inoffensive, unless the Boss pushes the dog in the
'corner') ???

So why do you ask? Well, here it is.

First of all, the little pastry shop owner, never kissed the M bosses
hand, and that has been pissing the M Boss a lot.

Secondly, the M Boss has tried several times in the past to run the
shop himself, actually he would install some of his Mafia cousins, like
'GINO', better known as 'the Pastry Shah (shop)' (Shah of Iran).

The little shop (Iran) never forgave the Boss for that. How dare he
think he could just walk in and take over our shop?!?!?
They eventually (after more than 25 years of occupation), pushed the
Boss, and his cousin Gino clear out of the shop and warned them both to
never come back! (1978, fall of the Shah)

Never again, they swore, would they let foreign insurgency British
(same idea as the US, in the period '20's to late 40's), American or
any other, take over matters of their sovereignty.

The M Boss actually got scared! Not of the little pastry shop owner
(Iran), but rather, of not being able to eat his amazing donuts
(OIL)!!! The Boss had to find a way to keep eating those donuts.

So the Boss turned to none other than 'Franko', better known as
'FrankensteinMeister' (that's the Pentagon, CIA, and co.).

You see, Franko is real good at making 'monsters'. They've made so many
in the past, that they suceeding in making the news exciting!!!

This time, Franko, the 'freankensteinmeister', figured he could install
one of his monsters in a small shop right next door to our Small Pastry
Shop:
...and "(sad)DAM-GOOD-Donuts" was born!!!
(they were good at making monsters, but no so with names, I must admit).

Anyhow, (sad)DAM-GOOD-Donuts, with a big hand from the M Boss, ended
giving our 'Little Pastry Shop' a good run for his Donut marketplece
money (1980-88 Iran-Irak war).

Thinking that he was fighting a small shop just like his, our little
shop fought and fought and fought, thinking HIS donuts WOULD COME OUT ON
TOP!

But after 8 years of fighting, he reAlized THAT the M Boss was backing
the ennemy shop, and figured it was a losing battle (and we are still
wondering; however inexcusable and unforgivable, how come terrorism
exists, and how come it's directed at 'us' !!!)

Can't have a fair fight against such a perverse ennemy, thought our
little shop. "... (sad)DAM-GOOD-DONUTS we could beat hands down any
day, but this M Boss backing him is just too big." (1988, Komeini drinks
the 'poison chalice' (abdicating in front of the ennemy: huge shame for
Persian people), and withdraws from the war against Iraq).

In the meantime, the M Boss had kept his hand in the 'Donut Jar' (oil),
Thanks to 'Franko' whom had created 'Saddrankenstein', the front man for
(sad)DAM-GOOD-DONUTS, a veritable 'PIT'bull gardian of the endless donut
'PIT'.

END OF FIRST CHAPTER.

Coming up in the next chapter:

"...the M Boss obviously violates the TAXFREEDONUT treaty, (NPT), but
our little pastry shop went on to find out that not only did the Boss
violated the TAXFREEDONUT treaty (NPT), HE SUPPORTS another, never in
contention 'small pastry (bagel) shop' that has never even been asked to
subcribe to the TAXFREEDONUT treaty, (NPT).

This pastry (bagel) simply goes on, with the M Boss umbrella, to make
as many TAXFREEDONUT as they wish, in profound violation of the spirit
and letter of the TAXFREEDONUT treaty. Not being asked to adhere to the
TAXFREEDONUT treaty, much less being summonned to stop violating
it(NPT).

HUM!!! did our 'little pastry shop' (Iran) think, in the backroom of
their little shop, COULD THAT BE A WORLD DOUBLE STANDARD from which no
fairness of treatment can be expected?!?!?!

(to be followed)

DISCLAIMER:
I DO NOT SUPPORT NOR SUBSCRIBE TO EITHER SIDE OF THIS SENSTIVE QUESTION.
THE METAPHOR IS SIMPLY MEANT TO SET THE TABLE FOR AN OPEN AND OBJECTIVE
'DEBATE' ON THE TOPIC AT HAND.
RELIGIOUS AND POLITICAL FANATICS ARE WELCOMED, IT GOES WITHOUT SAYING,
... BUT THEY MUST REMEMBER TO BREATH ON THEIR OWN!!!

Are the "donuts" oil or enriched (weapons grade) uranium? You used
both and never differentiated. Second our neighbor to the north (YOU!)
provides the US with over half of our imported oil. Lastly, Iran could
avoid all of the rigamarole with the US, IAEA, and the UN by building
nuclear power plans which produce copious amounts of energy but no
uranium. They choose to produce the uranium (and comparing donuts to
nulear material is just goofy) and must accept the consequences. Am I
saying the US is without fault, no, what I am saying is that this
"pastry shop" is acting in a provacative manner and while it's neighbors
may be in no position to take action the "donuts" it is selling have
implications which are reaching around the neighborhood and have anyone
thinking that if they have some yeast and a couple of eggs they can do
the same thing. Oh Lord, see what you've made me do?

In closing, I think that Iran wants no part of a war in which the
world is lining up against them but is perfectly content to try to goad
the US (or Isreal or Britain from the looks of it) into attacking them
and then crying "Oh, poor me, help me!" if it happens.

'derfw3',

Aren't you forgetting to breathe??? (no offence of course, but have you
read the disclaimer?)

Don't jump right back into first degree, it completely defeats the
purpose auto-critique !!! Which is fundamental in a healty democracy!!!

As an example, bringing up the donuts 'derfw3'. It is a metaphor
remember (yes, metaphors can be humorous, especially in such serious
topics. That's the job of a metaphor, to distance ourselves from
anchored points of view, so we can gain a better perspective, and see
the whole picture, clearer. Just laugh, get the point and roll with it.)

And yes, donuts are both. In the front store, and in the 'donut jar'
its oil (it's upfront and public), and in the backstore it's Iran
Nuclear Development, all of it, what we know, and don't of it (including
uranium enrichment prospects). It's very clearly differentiated. Sorry
you missed it!

If you allow your personnal honor to be attacked by purely invented
metaphors, I don't think you will have fun on this post.

On the other hand, with a little effort on your part, I'm sure you could
bring yourself to temporarily 'let go' of the rethoric, take the side of
counter rethoric (or counter propaganda),
... fresh original thoughts, instead of the party line, healthy
self-criticism, instead this pucky attitude of infallability.

Allowing a contraty viewpoint to enter your mind for just a
moment, IS NOT DANGEROUS, I swear! And I promise, you can always go
back to your previous viewpoints.

Hell, try laughing at yourself if all else fails.
After all these forums are not exactly official exchanges of the United
Nations!

You don't to defend your country here. It's not being attacked!!!

Rethoric is already there for all!!! Breaking rethoric apart, isn't
attacking ourselves, NOR IS IT ATTACKING EACH OTHER!!!
But it does hold the prospect of coming out the loop with openings, and
solutions, instead of the same old "... this is your opinion, and of
course YOU share it!!!

Let's explore this 'derfw3', and let's have a bit of fun doing it!!!

The U.N. is an impotent entity. Most of its members are in cahoots with
Iran and Iran's govt. will continue to spew lies and B.S. as long as we
keep swilling it.

voileazur, I asked a simple question. Why would the UN impose yet more
sanction's when past one's had been violated. While I may not be a
rocket scientist, there is no need to be condensending, thanks.

While we may all have differences of opinon on this very subject, there
is nothing wrong with discussion and hearing other's opinion's. Not
into fights or flamming attacks or forcing one opinion over another,
etc. We are all adults in here and everyone has an opinion, no? I have
mine and while I can appreciate other's, I don't need someone to
convince me otherwise or to change my mind, but, I will listen to
reasoning and understand someone else's point of view, for
sure.

Top World Oil Producers, Exporters, Consumers, and Importers,
2004
(millions of barrels per day)
Producers1 Total oil
production Exporters2 Net oil
exports Consumers3 Total oil
consumption Importers4 Net oil
imports
1. Saudi Arabia 10.37 1. Saudi Arabia 8.73 1. United States 20.5 1.
United States 11.8
2. Russia 9.27 2. Russia 6.67 2. China 6.5 2. Japan 5.3
3. United States 8.69 3. Norway 2.91 3. Japan 5.4 3. China 2.9
4. Iran 4.09 4. Iran 2.55 4. Germany 2.6 4. Germany 2.5
5. Mexico 3.83 5. Venezuela 2.36 5. Russia 2.6 5. South Korea 2.1
6. China 3.62 6. United Arab Emirates 2.33 6. India 2.3 6. France
2.0
7. Norway 3.18 7. Kuwait 2.20 7. Canada 2.3 7. Italy 1.7
8. Canada 3.14 8. Nigeria 2.19 8. Brazil 2.2 8. Spain 1.6
9. Venezuela 2.86 9. Mexico 1.80 9. South Korea 2.1 9. India 1.5
10. United Arab Emirates 2.76 10. Algeria 1.68 10. France 2.0 10. Taiwan
1.0
11. Kuwait 2.51 11. Iraq 1.48 11. Mexico 2.0
12. Nigeria 2.51 12. Libya 1.34
13. United Kingdom 2.08 13. Kazakhstan 1.06

well that was a disaster. LMAO
Anyway visit
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922041.html
I dont know why the table didnt print right.
The US is the 3rd largest producer of oil in the world. Yet we consume
20.5 million barrels a day, By far the largest consumer in the world.
Canada only produces .........eh go look for your self. My point was
canada in no way could provide the US with half of what we consume. They
only produce 3.14 million barrels a day. The US consumes every drop of
oil we produce, 8.69 mb a day and import, 11.8mb a day. While Canada
uses 2.13mb a day, they still produce more than they use, leaving them
with 1.1 mb a day to export. That is no where near to half of the 11.8
mb a day that we import. Once again Derf your facts are based on some
misconception.

Some interesting info., thanks fanta. Canada continues to seek and
process it's own oil resources versus relying 100% on importing, it's
just not enough.

I only been here a little while but long "winded" condenscending
statements have a familar tone of filabustering. Your not going to win
over with you arguments only strengthen the other side resolve that way.
It's akin to starting a fight instead of reasoning and swaying opinion.

Jane, you asked a good question. I couldnt answer, neither do I think
anyone at the UN could. Like Bigglenn said the Un is a defunct
organization, started for good reasons, but twisted to the point it is
today which bickers more than our own senate.
They act too slow and have no real authority. If they do act it is
primarily with US military force. Voil uses analogy to make a point. Ill
use another one. how can you fight back against a school bully (US),
when he towers over you by 1 ft. and 100 lbs.? You first go to the
teacher (UN), if that doesnt work then you fight dirty, thats how, and
that is what is happening to us around the world today. That is why the
Iraq military melted into the population ahead of our military invasion.
That is why the Iranian's want Nukes. We are the only country in the
world to ever use a nuclear weapon in the history of the world, and we
did it twice. Self-defence that is why they want one of their own, and I
cant blame them, can you? If they run to the teacher (UN) to complain
that the playground bully (US) is pushing them around, they find that
the teacher (UN) is in our back pocket. What are they to do?

fanta you are so right abought the u.n.

Jane, what I found shocking is how much moreoil we use than the rest of
the world. Instead of invading countries, I think we should have a
national effort, like we did during the race to the moon, only try to
find alternative fuel sources. In the meantime we could find ways to
reduce our consumption. Like a better public tansit system. It is hard
to do simple things, like go to work, or the grocery store in this
country unless you live in the city. That is shameful, we are the
greatest country in the world, but we have the most short sighted
leadership as well. When we invaded Iraq it was the first time in
history that we used preemptive force against a soverign nation. I know
people will come back and say that they attack us, but fact is Saddam
and Osama had different muslim beliefs. Beyond that if put in the same
room together they would have killed each other. Canada must truly be
our friends. they send their kids to Iraq to die for our glutony of oil,
when they dont even need to import any for their own use. What a friend,
but I have to wonder are they naive or is their government in our pocket
as well.

I hear what you're saying fanta. Long time ago, I really believed what
the purpose and intent of the UN was. Greed and corruption supercede
unity and peace in today's world.

While I understand Iran has the right, as any country does, to have
nuclear energy the timing and manner in which they are pursuing it can
be of concern. While they claim that the US is bullying them, keeping
them in a submissive postion, I don't think continuing on in an evasive
and deceptive manner is going to do anything but compound concern and
fear's they are pursuing enrichment for weapons grade. Iran is saying
they are afraid of being attacked by the US and Israel and that is why
they are being evasive and contrary.

Could it not be said the UN and US are insisting on yet more sanction's
in an attempt for Iran to be on the level, as other countries are, with
their nuclear programs, in order to avoid having any one country doing
thing's in secrecy and possibly amassing weapons grade uranium?

Canada is no different in that we vote for the right reason's. I did
not vote for a Prime Minister that want's to go to war. He had recently
declared that he want's to put Canada on the map, in regards to having a
presence in the current war. We have always been a peace keeping nation
and this tard feel's it is his duty to put our country right in the
middle of war. For what reason's....most of us are still trying to
figure that one out.

only one question to your "iran" thread.....how far?
hehehehe

I have no doubt that is what they are doing!!
I have to ask and try to understand why though, because that is the only
way we will find a solution. We need to change the way we respond to the
world problems instead of the statusquo, while maintaining a strong
military just in case, and as a deterrent from becoming a victim
ourselves. But at the present time we are compounding the problem.
Militarily at the present time, we have apr. 150,000 men and women in
the perfect situation to suffer one of the greatest military losses in
our history. If Iran gets a nuke, and lobs it into the fleet massed in
the narrow confines of the Persian gulf while simultaniously crossing
into N Iraq with their 3-5 million man military, our soldiers, my
brothers, will be forced to fight with very little air cover to the
death, or surrender. We might regroup eventualy, we might lob a few
nukes back, but what a travesty that will be, even if we win in the end.
The Iranians dont really care, they will gain what they see as a
military victory over the invading infidels. They fought Saddam in the
80's with 10 year old kids. They are fanatics who would do anything just
to kill us. That is what years and years of our current policy's have
done so far. They hate us, imagine how bad life for you and me would
have to get for us to resort to strapping dynamite to our chest and walk
into a crowd then pull the det cord. It is said that you can attrack
more bees with honey than vinegar.

I have to agree with what you are saying fanta. I don't think paranoia
and brute force are going to resolve anything but that is all that's
happen's when there is evasion and deviation. I also agree with bigGlenn
that the UN is now impotent.

Too many player's in the game with nuke's and no one is afraid to use
them if they "have" to. The dominoe affect will be devastating. No one
win's.

Thats what Im saying noone wins!

It takes 40 days for a tanker to carry oil from Saudi Arabia to the US.

It cost's about $80k - $100k per day, for that tanker to carry the oil
to the US.

There were 400 people murdered or captured from ships in the Malacca
Strait in 2004 (links the Indian Ocean and the Pacific), and 445
reported cases of piracy attacks in 2003.

There are less than 80-90 refineries in the world and most are in the US
and Southeast Asia. (to get the oil to Singapore, they have to also go
through the Strait of Malacca).

* from the book "What Every American Should Know About Who's Really
Running the World: The People, Corporations, and Organizations That
Control Our Future", Melissa Rossi.