That should get your mouse-finger twitching already. Me and a guy at
work had a long debate over this one.

I'll try to keep it short: Choose some set of prophecies. Old Testament,
New Testament, Mayan Prophecies, Nostradamous - whatever particular set
you feel is legitimate. Now, the value of those prophecies is that some
are clearly "fullfilled", and some are "yet to be fullfilled".

if you look at the "fullfilled" ones, you quickly see that there were
generations of preceeding events that lead to the particular
circumstances that occured. Quick example: Jesus birth foretold
generations before, the angel visited Elizabeth to tell her things were
coming along (a 'generation' before Mary/Joesph). Joseph's wife died, he
remarried to Mary ... and the rest is history. All the events, distant,
and near, directly effected the history.

So, there was clearly alot of pre-determined "cause & effect" that
occured, most of it senseless to the people (like Joseph's wife). The
future also points to alot of pre-determined "cause & effects" that will
be fullfilled.

I say we all play a part in the role of pre-destiny. Since we're human,
we cant do anything about it (example: Wasnt Judas pre-destined to
betray Jesus - otherwise, there would be no Christianity!)

I say that we have "free will" only in the sense of how our hearts
respond to the circumstances around us. We can accept bad situations
with a joyful, or hurtful heart.

I DO NOT say we lack responsibilty for our actions. That may seem
paradoxical, but, in the end we can't really influence the cosmic scheme
of things, but we can do our best. We are responsible.

well well.someone who i can talk to about this type of stuff to!

correct me, if I'm wrong.
somwhere in the Bible it is said that:
"I was hungry, and you fed me. etc
it is also said "Iwas hungry, yet you didn't feeb me" , well You got hte
passage
we will be judged by our actions and, or lack of them
I do strongly believe in free will.

When you line up a batch of dominoes and push the first into the second,
you may know that the last will fall, and so you can prophesy that the
last will fall, but somewhere in the middle one may fall slightly right
or left of center. So it is possible to know the outcome without every
detail being cast in advance. However, since you are raising it in this
manner let me suggest another paradox for you. In Calvinism, the issue
of predestination is presumed to be defined for every individual.
Therefore any person who is predestined to go to heaven might be said to
be destined to go there no matter how the person behaves, sin or no sin,
helping others to live Christian lives or not. And yet the Calvinists
have been so determined to teach others about salvation, and to
encourage others to live in the manner of a good Christian. Therefore
you might assume that all Calvinists assume that salvation is theirs by
predestination, because they believe it cannot be earned. If they were
not believing in their own personal predestination then it would be
unlikely they would embrace the religion that they would believe would
condemn them to hell, or at least preclude their moving to heaven.
Furthermore it would seem that preaching and bringing others into the
fold, would seem odd given that if they are destined to be saved and to
go to heaven then presumably they would be going whether the Calvinists
helped them along or not, and if they were not going to heaven already
than no help and guidance would make the difference.
This Calvinist group would seem to be a small part of Christendom but
the Lutherans and Presbyterians in particular are largely influenced by
the Calvinist doctrine.
The Buddhists have a different perspective. If a person behaves in a
right manner than their next life might be better than this one, more
blessed, but if they behave badly towards others they may find
themselves in a worse situation than this life. From that sense everyone
is always able to influence their destiny in some manner by proper
behavior. They have a hellish structure, but it is different from the
typical Christian belief of hell.
I think the dominoes are falling in a general direction, but there are
a lot of dominoes. Once in a while one domino may just be a little bit
out of line, and once in a while the grape jelly on the bottom of one
will make it just stick in place. And once in a while some fool will
prophesy some thing or another that he has no idea about. For instance
your kid brother's propensity to get grape jelly all over everything he
touches.
We might all be just a little better off without some of the current
prophesy, serving as guidance for the rulers of countries and reason for
specific wars.

How can you go into Calvinism, in a serious and direct manner without
mentioning Hobbs! Thats sacrilige!

OK, I love this stuff. My turn. Are we talking about ETHICS here or
philosophy? OK I'll take the ethical route since there is so much,
already, given over to the different theologies here. First, can
calvanists be considered Christian, at least according to the New
Testament? The old Testament, from the Tora, is based on the premise
that only thought, word and deed will get us into heaven. That these are
"most" of the basis for getting there, of course there are "the chosen"
poeple who will get there anyway. Then comes along the New Testament,
where all that is required is to believe in Jesus as the son of God etc.
and to confess your sins in him by way of that belief. I just hate it
when people use both codex in combination and twist it to mean the same
thing.
NOW to the topic of discussion. Predestined, or Fee will - I say both
for once being born there is only one desitiny we can all count on -
death. But in between, totally free will, it can not be both ways. Of
course I speak this not as one who follows any faith. In my humble
opinoin, to follow any religion that includes prophesies, one MUST
believe in predestination, which of course totally limits the potential
of the mind we were given. To proceed further into philosophical
thought as a "Christian", for example, is strictly speaking, - a
blasephemy. For it can only lead to more in depth questions that if
reviewd might change the mind of this "Christian". So if controlling
the masses, or even a small society, does it not seem logical to put
into play - prophasies? For to believe these would mean to accept
predestination, and to limit the questioning, and the thought process
that might take us away from those religious roots. I do not
believe in prophacies, however, I have a theory that include the
possiblilty that we may know something about, or even see some future
event. But it is only a theory and I do not believe they are
predictions, but rather a disruption in our linear time thought
processes. After all just because we created a way to keep track of
time, does not mean that we actually live our lives on a straight and
narrow linear path. That would just be too easy.

This is something I run into every once in a while. It's really not that
complicated to me.

God created all the roads. He knows all the intersections, because He
created them. We can choose any road we like and strive to reach
whatever destination suits us - but God knows where every road ends, and
what lies along the way. He even knows which roads we'll choose, because
He created us and knows us better than we do.

We have free will, and God knows every decision we can and will make.
It's not an either-or situation.

Redykeulous, I can always count on you to give me a run for my money!

If there was free-will Judas wouldnt have betrayed Jesus. Lets say Judas
DIDNT betray Jesus, then there'd be no Last Supper, no Stations of the
Cross, no Good Friday, and no Easter Eggs or Chocolate Bunnies. In other
words, there'd be no Christianity, and anyone who feels that 'christian
salvation' is the only way to heaven, would be crowded into 'hell'.

So, your salvation rested on Judas betraying Jesus. Sounds like
pre-destination to me!

I'm not going to read all of your messages--too long. But like London,
Steinbeck, Crane and others I am a naturalist. We are at the mercy of
our heredity and environment. Little, if any, free will.

Oh, sushi, then what purpose would there be to get up every morning, to
have higher education, to learn about medicine if we did not believe we
had a free will to make our lives worth the living.

Mike - Then was Judas prompted by Satan to betray Jesus, or was it
only the will of God that led him into that act? And if we are all
predesdined to bend to the will of God, than are we not following our
due course even if/when it is the voice of Satan that we may follow?
For if Satan is the guardian of hell and if it is never our choice to do
wrong, than are we still in good standing with God?

Red: Your comment sounds like there's an expectation that 'satan' is
some anti-god. and if that were the case, the pre-destination idea would
fall apart. I say satan & God get along quiet well, (as described in the
Book of Job) and that satan has a job to do, just like everyone else in
creation.

I am really loving this whole 'Regligious thing'. There was a short
time in my life where I studied various regligions so much, That I think
that it about drove me crazy. I do want to say that I don't believe in
regligion any more. Regligion is just a seperation of people, and why
would God want us seperated from each other. Regligion is just a way
that people can explain what they do understand. I believe that there is
only one God, the same one for everyone, and that every one can be here
for something special, it is there for them, or they can chose
differently another path that they might not be quite so good at
walking. I believe in science and fact. Now that same science and fact
is proving that there really is a God, and he really does exist, he is
just different than people may picture him. Some people view God as some
kind of being confined into a 'body' sitting on a throne somewhere, When
I say God is alot more that that. Scientifically, what is the only thing
that can never be created or distroyed and is omnipreasent (everywhere
at once), as in the description of God?? ENERGY. I say we have free
will. Because in quantum physics reality does not even exist unless
thought has been entered into the equation. ok to be fair i'll look at
the christen view. If we do not have free will, than why would God
condem certain people to hell if they have no free will to change that?
That sounds like an evil god. I'm sorry if I get carried away sometimes.
I'll be glad to answer any questions on anything that I state. I just
want to help people understand things, and in the process learn
something new myself.

What have you guys been doing all night--reading the Thesarus? LOL

"If we do not have free will, than why would God condem certain people
to hell if they have no free will to change that? That sounds like an
evil god. "

Christianity is based on the notion that human beings DO have free will,
and their ultimate place in destiny is based on what they do in this
mortal life. Predestination has little logical support in that light.

However, can we honestly say that God has no idea whatsoever what anyone
is going to do, or where they're going to end up at the end of it all?
Equally ridiculous, and the one point that predestinationists rely on
for their viewpoint. It's a valid one, to be sure. God certainly DOES
know the choices we will make, even before we have been created.

What shapes the conversation is whether or not one believes in a God of
probabilities, if you will. A God that knows the choices you could make,
and the outcomes for all of them - and has planned accordingly. We make
the decisions, and we all fit into His plan, regardless of the choices
we make.

The choices we make are for our benefit, not His. He is God. He is
already transcendent. Of course He wants us there with Him, but it's our
choice that makes the difference. This is the soundest reasoning behind
free will there is.

We cannot take roads He did not design, however. We can never step
outside God's plan. This is the soundest reasoning for predestination
there is.

In the end, I think it's both. We have free will. God knows our every
step before we take it. God made it this way, and gave us our own minds
to do it with, not for His sake but for ours so we can learn from our
experiences.

Being Hindu, I happen to believe that everyone comes to be with God at
the end of their journeys. It makes a certain amount of logical sense to
me for God to make life's roads this way in the first place, and bring
us back again and again to learn on spiritual levels. There's too much
to learn in the span of a single lifetime, and God would not logically
create damned souls.

But, I could be unutterably wrong. Ahh, philosophy. :)

sure we do. it all really p to us we choose what way we want to go
heaven or hell it pretty simple we not robots.

I am in alot of agreement with you MD. I don't believe that God can
or will send anyone to hell. This is what I don't get about the logical
aspect about reglion. (Where I don't think that there is much logic.) By
placeing anyone into a dungen of fire to burn for any peorid of time,
then that would make you an evil person/being. If God is all good all
the time, then that is a contradiction. I think that God is all Love.
Pure Love. And since He loves all of us, then he could not torcher any
of us for any thing, or in antway. Why? Not just because He created us,
but because we are a part of Him. All of us is a part of each other. We
just seperate our selves from each other and everything. Everything is a
part of everything else. And to say we are not, than we are selfish.
One of my layman term examples, that prove that we all are a part of
everything, that will help others understand is that, on an atomic
level, the trees are a part of us and we them. We breath in Oxygen and
exhale Carbon Dioxide. Trees inhale Carbon Dioxide and exhale Oxygen. So
this exchange of molecules makes us a part of each other. Everyone and
everything is connected. I could go on and on, but this is not my
thread. But, if any one is courious about my reglious or scientific
philosophies, then feel free to ask. I am an expert in these fields, and
have the paper to back it up. I'm sorry if I have stepped on any toes or
anything, but I just want to help people understand, while they teach me
even more that I know. There is always Something that you can learn from
Anyone.

I never believed in predestiny before but a membership class talked
about it and proved it w/ the verses:

Ephesians 1:11 (Whole Chapter)
In him we were also chosen, [ Or were made heirs] having been
predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in
conformity with the purpose of his will,

Jeremiah 15:2 (Whole Chapter)
And if they ask you, 'Where shall we go?' tell them, 'This is what the
LORD says: " 'Those destined for death, to death; those for the sword,
to the sword; those for starvation, to starvation; those for captivity,
to captivity.

Romans 8:29
29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the
likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also
justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Passage Ephesians 1:4-6:
4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and
blameless in his sight. In love 5he[a] predestined us to be adopted as
his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—
6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in
the One he loves.

Passage Ephesians 1:11-12:
11In him we were also chosen,[a] having been predestined according
to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the
purpose of his will, 12in order that we, who were the first to hope in
Christ, might be for the praise of his glory.

Passage 1 Peter 2:8:
8and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes
them fall."[a] They stumble because they disobey the message—which is
also what they were destined for.

- this one above shows He has a plan for us but He gives us Free Will to
choose to disobey and that is when we stumble (mess our lives up) so
puts things in our path to guide us back on the right track.

Below are verses showing that some people belong to satan (I couldn’t
believe it either but there it is in the Bible)

1 John 3:12 (Whole Chapter)
Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his
brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil
and his brother's were righteous.

John 8:43-47
43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear
what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to
carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning,
not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he
speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you
prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe
me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not
hear is that you do not belong to God."

no because the devil wins temptation race all the time

Only if you let him.

Very good Christin Country Girl. In assumeing your out of context
words say what I think that they are saying, then I thought that God the
Father was God and Father of everything, and that He is pure good. How
can pure good create evil? In a way I think that we are the evil. We
just have to have some entity to blame our faults on. Perhaps another
one of the fathers creations from himself. Because we humans are quick,
and know that it is easier, to place the blame eleswhere besides us. God
loves each and everyone of us. Because we all are a part of Him. And no
matter how evil we are, (some of us are really messed up), He will still
be there waiting for us with open arms. TRUTH. Not interputations that
someone has taught. Gods truth expands alot more than just a few books.