seems then "god" be in each, since there is not ONE that does NOT love another.....everybody loves somebody............LOVE IS TOTALLY UNIQUE TO EACH BEING, so why "god" CAN'T be SEEN...

seems the mind thinking what one WANTS the most is love is the fallicy that must pass away for more enlightenment........

thus any "perfection" would be seeing there can be NO DEFINTION of god or love, and that defintions of what love be produce circles of walking and talking, but never seeing......

just because an IF was added does not mean a state of "loving" is not already in effect, as the mind can easily accept......

BELUSHI wrote:




SMILESS wrote:




There actually is a very tangible common denominator between Belushi's call of desparation: '... never ending cycle...' and '... Its all getting very tiring ...', and Smiless's suggestion of hope: '... historical viewpoint (vs) faith base (perspective)...'.

The denominator I suggest is Absolutism!!! Fundamentalist absolutism!!!

And you've guessed it, christianity is the absolute champion of dogmatic absolutism.

It is the very foundation, and originality (sort of the first signs of 'branding') of christianity.

The very birthing premise, and progressive emergence of christianity and the roman catholic church, was meant from its original intent, to claim the title of SUPER RELIGION. The religion that would surclass all others.

That worked quite well until education, and thus science and philosophy gained larger numbers of 'lucid converts'.

Thinking that 'evolution' and formal knowledge would put christian 'mythologies' in their right perspectives for modern societies in general, 'philosophical rationalists' quickly realized that 'christian theological orthodoxy', mostly protestant fundamentalism, had no taste for rationalism.

I remember, and revisit frequently the lecture of one of my philosophy teachers, going way back!, exposing the XVIII and XIX centuries cross-meeting of 'christian theologian orthodoxy' and emerging 'philosophical rationalism'.

Christianity (mostly of the protestant 'brand') needed to 're-tool', or re-package the old but thus far effective 'believe, or burn in hell' dogmas, in order to 'defeat' the 'attacks' of a new and dangerous ennemy: educated and rational thinking human beings (isn't it what homo sapiens were always meant to be?!?!?).

This teacher of mine, focused on the work of KARL BARTH. A staunch protestant theologian, son of a protestant theologan father, whose work amounted to having re-tooled and re-packaged christianity in more contempory context, against new forms pof threaths!!!

He championed the repositioning of christianity, such that it would be exempted from the scrutiny of retionalism, to which 'other' religions were exposed.

He is the architect of modern and revamped, apologetic artillery that would keep christianity from the modern 'attacks' of rationalists, scientists, and a more educated society that was starting to question aspects of christianity, for which fundamentalists had, ... NO ANSWERS.

Essentially, Barth's claim to fame was to remind modern society, that christianity, the religion 'par excellence', unlike other 'lesser' religions, was the only one which was 'god given to the world'.

In other words, regardless of rationalism, science, education, logic, facts, etc., fundamentalists were confirmed by Barth, in their unfounded convictions, and that they were 'right' to keep insisting that they knew the 'real truth', and the 'real facts' and, a bit like the god they worshipped, they could 'do no wrong' by defending these principles with every breatdth of their life against the attacks of unfaithfuls.

Sounds familiar?!?!?!

Protestant fundamentalists use Barth inspired modern apolegetics artillery, to counter every single notion that christianity would be something other than god's (their god) absolute and FINAL TRUTH.

And 'we' come on the religion chat forum of a dating site, naively expecting some sort of sain debate, exploring religion from an objective, rational, and historical basis???

There is still a small yet vocal group of protestanbt fundamentalists whom are on a religious crusade to defend, agaisnt all odds, the delusion that christianity, through their 'magic' book, is the only true truth?!?!?!

Still want to debate?!?!?!|

Absolutely! and everything you say is very true. It is a neverending circle of debates with no end.

and yes how odd to expect to actually have a great debate on a dating site over a deeper understanding "historically" of religion! What was I thinking!

Nevertheless Mediterreanen Mythologies have been debated at no end in this forum. If only we had some Hindus, Buddhists, or even Taosists that would like to share their stories or studies. It would make it all the more interesting, yet again as you have mentioned to have such wishes on a dating site is asking for too much and especially in a American dating site where the majority of the people in this country are usually of faith with an mediterreanen mytholgy belief system.

but thank you for your viewpoints and I learned alot from them.

Still want to debate??? ... was a genuine question?

Debating 'religion' from a historical perspective on a 'dating site' is a tough uphill battle, but such a worthwhile one!!! :)

Furthermore, I'm not sure at all that Mediterreanen Mythologies HAVE BEEN EXPLORED AND DEBATED FROM AN OBJECTIVE AND HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE. They've been proselytized to death, but not debated intelligently.

History of religions, exploring, understanding and putting ALL RELIGIONS in perspective, rather than proselytizing about one's personnal dogmas!!!

Start it, and I for one will enthusiastically and humbly partake!!!
(read my profile: exchanging what I've stumbled upon, and learning more about history of thought, and history of religions are keen interests of mine.)


Cheers to you 'smiless'!

Do you think there is anyone impartial enough to engage in a sane debate like that? Is there anyone on this site knowledgeable enough to engage in such a debate?

Would a person engulfed in their own belief system who gets offended by statements and evidence be eligible to participate in such a debate?

JB

As I said JB, a 'tough uphill battle', a sort of utopic project, but what the hell, aren't we insatiable and hopeless 'life learning commandos'?!?!?


But for sure, putting chances on our side, I would request, out of all the light seeking commandos on these treads, that you accept the unforgiving role of 'gatekeeperesse' and uncompromising, wise and compassionate 'moderatoresse' !!!


What do you say JB??? 'smiless' as host, you as 'gatekeeperesse and moderatoresse extraordinaire' !!!

It can't fail!!!


I HAVE FAITH IN THAT !!! (unsubstantiated, unfounded, and without a trace of evidence. PURE FAITH!!! It's perfect.)

Huh?: Which is harder: pushing a rope or dragging a chain? And how does that relate to installing a screen door on a submarine? Was that you in front of me at McDonald's today? Holding up the line because you couldn't decide on the chicken Mc Booties or the fillet of carp? I thought you looked familiar!

so this is to say you don't agree, lol......

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh my we went from Do be do be do
Toooooooooooooooooo Dum Dum Dum...

I want me do be backkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk,,

Thanks for picking up on the humor!

Okay since I have been elected to host!

Here are questions that always occur to me. Now I am not looking for scriptures from a religious text. I am looking more into why they actually did this at the time or historically why it happened.

Who was the first in history to believe in ONE GOD and shed his views onto the people. I read once that it was a pharoah of Egypt that had many of the statues of various gods destroyed and he erected on a hill a temple to only worship one god, which is the god of ra or the sun god.

My question is: Could all of these later monotheistic religions have started from one individuals mind that first thought up of worshipping only one god?

So if I add this up there was a failed attempt in Egyptian times to believe in one god and then much later the jews then were credited for the idea of worshipping the god of abraham, which then much later in history the torah was then in attempt to be revised to create this bible as Jesus. Where later Jesus's movement then threatened roman authority, which many jews at the time didn't like their torah to be changed and cooperated with the Romans to crucify jesus on a cross to warn all those who follow that path will also be nailed, humilated, and tortured in the same way.

Now please what I am looking for is who was the actual first person credited for believing in one god?? Sumerians, Egyptians, etc.

and how that could have effected later on to have people create new mythologies or religions to keep it alive today.

thank you for your input

Also another question I have about the Quran.

It is said in scriptures that a angel helped Mohammed write the Quran. Otherwise a miraculous event.

Now for those who don't believe in such things and want a historical viewpoint. Who actually wrote the Quran.

Did Muhammed hire someone to walk with him on his adventures?

Could it have been a Jew perhaps that helped write the Quran?

If Muhammed wasn't able then who did?

This question is about the Jews?

We know in history that the Egyptians ousted out the Jews from their domain so to say. Or first the Jews were slaves and later began to get authority positions that threatened Egyptian lifestyle and then it happened to where they were then ousted out of their domain.

As far as I understand is that the Jews then were allowed to create a new settlement and continue to thrive in their religious and lifestyle desires.

Why did the Egpytians do this? Did the Jews threaten their belief system or lifestyle?

I realize that many cultures in history somehow have had a problem with Jews? Why is that and even today I recognize it often today?

From the Russians in the early 1900s, to the Germans in world war 2, and even the Americans who didn't accept asylum in the beginning to Jews from the ongoing world war. Today it continues in the MiddleEast to the conspiracies of the 9/11 attack.

Question on Buddhism.

We know that China has invaded Tibet because they felt that it is a part of Chinesse territory.

Now is Tibet still called Tibet and just a part of a province today. If so are they allowed to continue their belief system or is it restricted?

Now I know the Dalai Lama doesn't go back to Tibet. Is it because they will throw him in jail or is it he refuses to set his feet in a land that is of Chinesse control?

I have watched "7 days in Tibet" with Brad Pitt and it pretty much explains that the Chinesse have invaded the country and the Dalai Lama escaped. It doesn't explain much more after that.

Question on Pagans.

Would you believe that Pantheism is the oldest religion to exist on this planet. Or is it one that is now lost in the sands of time? Could it be the Hindus with the Verdas scriptures to be the oldest scriptures and religion of all time.

I ask for it can answer how other religions could have started later on.

Before the Ice Age

It is said that we are finding evidence that there are findings of a similiar human existants some 5 million years back and not just 130,000 years ago like many proclaim. It is not 100% proven as evidence as we are supposingly have had to look alot different considering evolution, yet if this is to be true then how can we ever know exactly how everything started from any religious doctrine that doesn't even bypass 10,000 years. Is it that we just originated from a single cell lurking in water and evolved from there. If so then what started that?

This leads back to why religion was created in the first place. Could it be nothing more to maintain order. Was it another way to create a governmental system to share equally (barter system) so to say.

If history shows this to be conclusive then is it so far off fetched to believe that our minds have developed so far that having faith is nothing more then a illusion of imaginative thought?

hmmmm?

smiless......welcome back most gracious host......

excellent questions to ponder indeed......

who was the first to believe in ONE god.....

if seeems with all logic that none can see into the heart of another, so even if one finds one that first proclaimed one god, it could never be known without doubt if this one said so with all soundness of heart, as this could have been spoken full well knowing it was a lie.......

many things are spoken with the mouth that the heart also whisper doubt about, and this then becomes as a lie when pronounced, unless the doubt is spoken along with the words......

this has without a doubt happened all down thru time, as who
does not have doubt many times in one day, and still speaks it anyhow, or even writes and publishes......

so this question logic would say is of no avail in trying to dig up who actually pinned the tail on the first donkey, so this answered would not lead to more truth, or truth with NO DOUBT, which is what we MUST have and seek.............

religious text speak of one god many times, but indeed to interpret text, text must interpret itself, by it's own code as it were, or map key.......

so biblical text descibes at the beginning the ground rules for interpreting, for all written words within and thruout, and the one god as proclaimed by text in the key is only truth, and so likewise does the last book of text say the same, as to proclaim as well the same truth in the last book written would be fitting for any conclusion........

Well thank you David very much for allowing me to post sincere questions and for you to spend some time to answer them for me.


if seeems with all logic that none can see into the heart of another, so even if one finds one that first proclaimed one god, it could never be known without doubt if this one said so with all soundness of heart, as this could have been spoken full well knowing it was a lie.......


reply: very true we don't know if the intention was good or bad. Perhaps it was just another way to control the masses at its time?

this has without a doubt happened all down thru time, as who
does not have doubt many times in one day, and still speaks it anyhow, or even writes and publishes......

reply: very true that many write through anger and not through the heart. Many of the greatest works it seems to be from those who were once inflicted by something that had bothered them. Reminds me when I was a child and couldn't communicate with my parents. Instead of screaming or shouting at each other, I would write a letter to them to read as another form of communication and I would get later that day another letter back to read to resolve a dispute. It worked most of the time!

so this question logic would say is of no avail in trying to dig up who actually pinned the tail on the first donkey, so this answered would not lead to more truth, or truth with NO DOUBT, which is what we MUST have and seek.............

reply: yes we seek and seek and seek. We come up with so many answers! It is difficult to say what is true or false because there are so many factors that expresses a person depending on their situation, where they live, how they were raised, and what they are experiencing now to be true.

religious text speak of one god many times, but indeed to interpret text, text must interpret itself, by it's own code as it were, or map key.......

reply: If only it wouldn't be in codes I always thought why have a religious doctrine written in such a way. Why not in the easiest langauge that everyone can understand and reply to. The same goes with law books!

so biblical text descibes at the beginning the ground rules for interpreting, for all written words within and thruout, and the one god as proclaimed by text in the key is only truth, and so likewise does the last book of text say the same, as to proclaim as well the same truth in the last book written would be fitting for any conclusion........

reply: and there is my answer. Perhaps they are written in this way to give many different answers that would be fitting for that individual. Unfortunately, it also brings too much confusion and unneccessary hurt to a person who seeks the truth. In the long run it is just another mystery when one really tries to find answers.

Mohammed and his angel.......

it seems one can only interpret the meaning of words, as percieved by perception, which is based SOLEY on the degree of fear and love for all words heard, which the degree of this is SOLEY based on the GREATEST DESIRE of the hearer, so then human perception is flawed and always subjective to the wants of the hearer......

it could be said what mohammed spoke and wrote was all truth, and indeed the same shall be found to be written even in exact form within biblical text, that each born hath an angel, that speak as thru the heart of one, and is always present as a guide, whispering when there is doubt, but this be ignored because of the strength and purpose of the mind greatest desire, but even so this angel guide thru the maze of unknowns of life as invisible and almost silent for a time to later increase wisdom by humility.......

but of course these words written here are subjective as well?

there is no proof shown yet to the eye, but indeed these things are written now in advance of seeing, so when seeing is had, or EVIDENCE, one knows is was spoken and written and viewed in plain site all along, to bring all together in humility, of a sort that can never be contrived, excpet by allowing each to see the impossible was indeed true, but fear turned to doubt kept all from beleiving, and these fears were not admitted, but rather sought to be erased with words that appeased, which can never erase........

this allow all know to pay heed to fear and doubt, and not to run from it, but rather to learn from it, and seeing they are friends that guide with precision ans excellence, wisdom is increased expedentially in all the lands and peace ring forth......

there is no greater wisdom given to man than the truth that speak from the heart, and to pay heed to it if one can be inspired, always allow graciousness and kindness to be bestowed by the universe.........peace