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| Topic: American Oil Reserves | |
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Edited by
Quikstepper
on
Mon 07/14/08 05:52 PM
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Here is something to think about.... Democrats say they are for drilling, but argue that oil companies aren't going after the oil where they already have leases. So why open new, protected areas? they ask. Democrats say there are 68 million acres of federal land and waters where oil and gas companies hold leases, but aren't producing oil. "Democrats support more drilling," he said. "In fact, what the president hasn't told you is that the oil companies are already sitting on 68 million acres of federal lands with the potential to nearly double U.S. oil production. That is why in the coming days congressional Democrats will vote on 'Use It or Lose It' legislation requiring the big oil companies to develop these resources or lose their leases to someone else who will." Got to it before I did but this is true. There is a confusion on why we do not use our own resources. I think one person touched on the fact that if we utilize others resources until they do not have them anymore then we will be holding all the cards. It is not the democrats or libs who are preventing this from happening it is the big oil companies who have "contracts or interest" in foreign oil who are hedging these facts and our illustrious president has lots of "interest" in Saudi and such. So I would think and read before I blame dems or libs for these problems. There is nothing wrong with protecting what is left of our wild country or animals. It will be soon enough that they are extinct and the land is populated. Yeah...even if it means bankrupting the country in the process??? I don't think so... Well there goes your theories of blaming Bush & haliburton when there are MANY reasons holding up the technological advancements .... Oil Oil Oil!!!! If Bush is pushing it, that means our coastlines are safe. He has a brown thumb when it comes to political issues these days. And I actually think McBush and McSame both have such guilty conscience that they subconsciencely want to lose.  i don't think all those rich republicans in Florida would be happy if they did start drilling there. ...and I can't wait for the rich limosine libs have to send their illegal slave workers out to the country side to shop. You seem to think it's only REPS that are rich. Rockefeller REPS & Limosine LIBS (DEMS).... they are all the same. Maybe when some here get THAT they will have more credibility... YU think? Nope, they are not the same. Pay close attention to this....Would Jesus be a Republican or Democrat? http://www.right-wing-pseudo-christians.com/jesus-democrat-republican.htm Jesus would be a republican because libs don't like to deal with their SINS... REPS OTOH, are more repentant. The truth be told it won't matter who gets elected... God is going to turn this world on it's spoiled brat head. If anything...Jesus will bring true justice to the nations. My O My...what will YOU be doing? |
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Here is something to think about.... Democrats say they are for drilling, but argue that oil companies aren't going after the oil where they already have leases. So why open new, protected areas? they ask. Democrats say there are 68 million acres of federal land and waters where oil and gas companies hold leases, but aren't producing oil. "Democrats support more drilling," he said. "In fact, what the president hasn't told you is that the oil companies are already sitting on 68 million acres of federal lands with the potential to nearly double U.S. oil production. That is why in the coming days congressional Democrats will vote on 'Use It or Lose It' legislation requiring the big oil companies to develop these resources or lose their leases to someone else who will." Got to it before I did but this is true. There is a confusion on why we do not use our own resources. I think one person touched on the fact that if we utilize others resources until they do not have them anymore then we will be holding all the cards. It is not the democrats or libs who are preventing this from happening it is the big oil companies who have "contracts or interest" in foreign oil who are hedging these facts and our illustrious president has lots of "interest" in Saudi and such. So I would think and read before I blame dems or libs for these problems. There is nothing wrong with protecting what is left of our wild country or animals. It will be soon enough that they are extinct and the land is populated. Yeah...even if it means bankrupting the country in the process??? I don't think so... Well there goes your theories of blaming Bush & haliburton when there are MANY reasons holding up the technological advancements .... Oil Oil Oil!!!! If Bush is pushing it, that means our coastlines are safe. He has a brown thumb when it comes to political issues these days. And I actually think McBush and McSame both have such guilty conscience that they subconsciencely want to lose. i don't think all those rich republicans in Florida would be happy if they did start drilling there. ...and I can't wait for the rich limosine libs have to send their illegal slave workers out to the country side to shop. You seem to think it's only REPS that are rich. Rockefeller REPS & Limosine LIBS (DEMS).... they are all the same. Maybe when some here get THAT they will have more credibility... YU think? Nope, they are not the same. Pay close attention to this....Would Jesus be a Republican or Democrat? http://www.right-wing-pseudo-christians.com/jesus-democrat-republican.htm Jesus would be a republican because libs don't like to deal with their SINS... REPS OTOH, are more repentant. The truth be told it won't matter who gets elected... God is going to turn this world on it's spoiled brat head. If anything...Jesus will bring true justice to the nations. My O My...what will YOU be doing? Jesus died a long time ago . Blessed those who forgot him all together . |
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ignoring that last statement.
Try taking the whole god and Jesus hate democrats to the religion forums please. |
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Here is something to think about.... Democrats say they are for drilling, but argue that oil companies aren't going after the oil where they already have leases. So why open new, protected areas? they ask. Democrats say there are 68 million acres of federal land and waters where oil and gas companies hold leases, but aren't producing oil. "Democrats support more drilling," he said. "In fact, what the president hasn't told you is that the oil companies are already sitting on 68 million acres of federal lands with the potential to nearly double U.S. oil production. That is why in the coming days congressional Democrats will vote on 'Use It or Lose It' legislation requiring the big oil companies to develop these resources or lose their leases to someone else who will." Got to it before I did but this is true. There is a confusion on why we do not use our own resources. I think one person touched on the fact that if we utilize others resources until they do not have them anymore then we will be holding all the cards. It is not the democrats or libs who are preventing this from happening it is the big oil companies who have "contracts or interest" in foreign oil who are hedging these facts and our illustrious president has lots of "interest" in Saudi and such. So I would think and read before I blame dems or libs for these problems. There is nothing wrong with protecting what is left of our wild country or animals. It will be soon enough that they are extinct and the land is populated. Yeah...even if it means bankrupting the country in the process??? I don't think so... Well there goes your theories of blaming Bush & haliburton when there are MANY reasons holding up the technological advancements .... Oil Oil Oil!!!! If Bush is pushing it, that means our coastlines are safe. He has a brown thumb when it comes to political issues these days. And I actually think McBush and McSame both have such guilty conscience that they subconsciencely want to lose. i don't think all those rich republicans in Florida would be happy if they did start drilling there. ...and I can't wait for the rich limosine libs have to send their illegal slave workers out to the country side to shop. You seem to think it's only REPS that are rich. Rockefeller REPS & Limosine LIBS (DEMS).... they are all the same. Maybe when some here get THAT they will have more credibility... YU think? Nope, they are not the same. Pay close attention to this....Would Jesus be a Republican or Democrat? http://www.right-wing-pseudo-christians.com/jesus-democrat-republican.htm Jesus would be a republican because libs don't like to deal with their SINS... REPS OTOH, are more repentant. The truth be told it won't matter who gets elected... God is going to turn this world on it's spoiled brat head. If anything...Jesus will bring true justice to the nations. My O My...what will YOU be doing? I am not religious at all. But it is true that the Republican party are lost and the neo-cons have ran your party and our country to hell. I don't know if you follow your party faithfully, it would be presumptiuos of me to think so. But I do have the sense of reality to not listen when McSame says it's all in our heads. I do realize their failed policies. We are in 11 trillion debt and growing. Trickle down economics didn't work. We were led into an illegal war based on lies and exaggerations. Bush has took the law in his own hand and took away our rights. He has disgraced America. I really don't get how anyone could continue to agree with this and call themselves a republican. One would have to be a blind follower. |
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Edited by
sam53
on
Mon 07/14/08 06:35 PM
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ignoring that last statement. Try taking the whole god and Jesus hate democrats to the religion forums please. What about all the statements before this one ?. Did you enjoy the hypocrisy ?. |
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Edited by
lifestooshort6
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Mon 07/14/08 06:10 PM
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Wait, wait, I bet you know what Im going to say, McConfused, while taking the NeoCon Bush's mirror position has called for removing bans that would permit more areas become available for Offshore Oil drilling. Even though Oil companies already hold leases on thousands of acres which they currently never pursue. Now there is proof from a Gov study that McConfused following Bush's lead conviently choses not to mention to the public! You judge, why do you think they would fail to mention this? The projections in the OCS access case indicate that access to the Pacific, Atlantic, and eastern Gulf regions would not have a significant impact on domestic crude oil and natural gas production or prices before 2030. Leasing would begin no sooner than 2012, and production would not be expected to start before 2017. Total domestic production of crude oil from 2012 through 2030 in the OCS access case is projected to be 1.6 percent higher than in the reference case, and 3 percent higher in 2030 alone, at 5.6 million barrels per day. For the lower 48 OCS, annual crude oil production in 2030 is projected to be 7 percent higher—2.4 million barrels per day in the OCS access case compared with 2.2 million barrels per day in the reference case (Figure 20). Because oil prices are determined on the international market, however, any impact on average wellhead prices is expected to be insignificant. Similarly, lower 48 natural gas production is not projected to increase substantially by 2030 as a result of increased access to the OCS. Cumulatively, lower 48 natural gas production from 2012 through 2030 is projected to be 1.8 percent higher in the OCS access case than in the reference case. Production levels in the OCS access case are projected at 19.0 trillion cubic feet in 2030, a 3-percent increase over the reference case projection of 18.4 trillion cubic feet. However, natural gas production from the lower 48 offshore in 2030 is projected to be 18 percent (590 billion cubic feet) higher in the OCS access case (Figure 21). In 2030, the OCS access case projects a decrease of $0.13 in the average wellhead price of natural gas (2005 dollars per thousand cubic feet), a decrease of 250 billion cubic feet in imports of liquefied natural gas, and an increase of 360 billion cubic feet in natural gas consumption relative to the reference case projections. In addition, despite the increase in production from previously restricted areas after 2012, total natural gas production from the lower 48 OCS is projected generally to decline after 2020. Although a significant volume of undiscovered, technically recoverable oil and natural gas resources is added in the OCS access case, conversion of those resources to production would require both time and money. In addition, the average field size in the Pacific and Atlantic regions tends to be smaller than the average in the Gulf of Mexico, implying that a significant portion of the additional resource would not be economically attractive to develop at the reference case prices. http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html Sun 07/13/08 04:43 PM QUOTE: Creating drama in this thread will not be tolerated. Play nice people or don't play at all. Mod Don Sorry Mod... I will try to be kinder & gentler... ================================================================ Jesus would be a republican because libs don't like to deal with their SINS... REPS OTOH, are more repentant. The truth be told it won't matter who gets elected... God is going to turn this world on it's spoiled brat head. If anything...Jesus will bring true justice to the nations. My O My...what will YOU be doing? Edited by Quikstepper on Mon 07/14/08 05:52 PM ================================================================ Wow, That lasted a long time didnt it!!!  |
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Some people prefer to be led ma'am. Some do not.
Just really beginning to dislike being arbitrarilly grouped with some hate philosophical faction. Quik honey, you say anything you want about libereral democrats...I am one. If you had a flat...I would change it for you. If you have the door held open for you as a common courtesy...I do it everyday. If you need someone to serve in the military to protect our families and global interests...I have done that. Your opinions through your strict affiliations are yours...you are entitled to them. It is what many people, including myself, have fought to protect. Hate on us all you wish my dear. I still accept you for who you are....though, apperently my kind is not good enough for your party's standards. I can easily live with it. Peace honey. Eric |
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It is all a smoke screen. Used to soften the public.
In April Shell oil said it was being run up by the market. That thier was plenty of oil and it should be at about $60 a barrel or $1.50 a gallon less at least now. The oil reserves in the Rocky Mountains have been known i think for 50 years. Congress mandated that it only be used in a national crisis it being a natural reserve. Ethonol is starting to not be on our minds as much as gas prices continue to rise.. The 2 big backers of Ethanol.. ADM and Bronsos the ecentric Billion Aire that owns virgin airlines. ADMs profits just from Ethanol 2006-5Billion 2007_7.5Billion 2008 they expect 10 billion plus. Bronson i have not seen published. But he did not jump on it because he saw a Fools gold Mine.. You can bet on that. China outlawed all Ethanol production in 2007 afraid a drought would starve the people. !8 months ago we started seeing eggs milk meats cerals all start to go up. We are planting 20% more corn thatn we were which means all the other crops we have 20%less. Look in your kitchen and see how many things are corn derived. We were told then that the cost in the grocery store was from oil. When in all actuality this run on corn has produced a 400% increase in the cost of corn. From 2 dollars a bushel i believe 4 years ago to 8 dollars now. The farmers are raking it in and i am glad they are as they are pumping money into the economy. John Deere in E. Moline ILL. stopped takeing orders they are 18 months behind. I am glad those are good paying jobs.. So some good is in thier. But all this run on gas did not start until 2 major players started making Ethanol and people started questioning why are our food prices going up. They have taken off our minds food prices. While they program us to get used to it. Billionaires are at work here. The more forclosures the more jobs are being run down because of illegal aliens. The more we become a poor people. We have always heard the Middle class is the backbone of our nation. Look foward to being slaves to the rich. Your rights being taken away little by little because all you can do with 2 incomes is the bare neccessities. So laws get passed more and more to apease the rich so they can take your 401k,pension and benefits away so they can get richer. Illegal immimigration was not a big problem 10 years ago. We are told terrorists are trying to come into our country to hurt us. Yet we can keep someone from walking across the border. Something does not add up!!! Several plains i have shown here where we are getting poorer. Thier are many ways to make a people be your slave. You feel it everyday you go to work when you are sick. Why do you have to go to work sick? Is your company not compassionate? We need to wake up. These oil prices are a smoke screen for those who are in power to enslave us.. They can already knock down your door ramsack your house and leave all without a warrant and no responcibility at all. You pay for the mess. Scareing us..fear.. teaching us to hate.. teaching us to spy on our nieghbor they may be the boogie man.. And we bend over and take it  Thier is only one way to head whats coming off before it is too late.. Term limits.. Freshman in congress are gung hoe untill they have a talking to and become part of the good ole boys club. Congress was never met to be career. If we had term limits then we would not have good ole boys clubs..We would have people in thier wanting to make a difference. That is probally's Barack's biggest assett to me. Inexperience.. He goes in with a clear headed and maybe just maybe will say---wait a minute this just does not sound right. He is a big threat to Washington because of this inexperience. Experience means you are part of the good ole boys club. I wonder who McCains running mate will be? Strange how easily he got the nomination at his age. We already know that the rich control the courts. Just look how many get off even when they are on tape committing the crime.. Then look at the poor. In Mo. a Public defender has 60 cases on thier desk at one time. How good of defence do you think they get? We the People.. Created Equal.... BS  Bring the middle class down, the rich get richer and we become thier slaves as they pass more laws for that purpose claiming a Democracy.. So when you go to the grocery store or the gas station think.. WE THE PEOPLE..... Is that really true |
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It is all a smoke screen. Used to soften the public. In April Shell oil said it was being run up by the market. That thier was plenty of oil and it should be at about $60 a barrel or $1.50 a gallon less at least now. The oil reserves in the Rocky Mountains have been known i think for 50 years. Congress mandated that it only be used in a national crisis it being a natural reserve. Ethonol is starting to not be on our minds as much as gas prices continue to rise.. The 2 big backers of Ethanol.. ADM and Bronsos the ecentric Billion Aire that owns virgin airlines. ADMs profits just from Ethanol 2006-5Billion 2007_7.5Billion 2008 they expect 10 billion plus. Bronson i have not seen published. But he did not jump on it because he saw a Fools gold Mine.. You can bet on that. China outlawed all Ethanol production in 2007 afraid a drought would starve the people. !8 months ago we started seeing eggs milk meats cerals all start to go up. We are planting 20% more corn thatn we were which means all the other crops we have 20%less. Look in your kitchen and see how many things are corn derived. We were told then that the cost in the grocery store was from oil. When in all actuality this run on corn has produced a 400% increase in the cost of corn. From 2 dollars a bushel i believe 4 years ago to 8 dollars now. The farmers are raking it in and i am glad they are as they are pumping money into the economy. John Deere in E. Moline ILL. stopped takeing orders they are 18 months behind. I am glad those are good paying jobs.. So some good is in thier. But all this run on gas did not start until 2 major players started making Ethanol and people started questioning why are our food prices going up. They have taken off our minds food prices. While they program us to get used to it. Billionaires are at work here. The more forclosures the more jobs are being run down because of illegal aliens. The more we become a poor people. We have always heard the Middle class is the backbone of our nation. Look foward to being slaves to the rich. Your rights being taken away little by little because all you can do with 2 incomes is the bare neccessities. So laws get passed more and more to apease the rich so they can take your 401k,pension and benefits away so they can get richer. Illegal immimigration was not a big problem 10 years ago. We are told terrorists are trying to come into our country to hurt us. Yet we can keep someone from walking across the border. Something does not add up!!! Several plains i have shown here where we are getting poorer. Thier are many ways to make a people be your slave. You feel it everyday you go to work when you are sick. Why do you have to go to work sick? Is your company not compassionate? We need to wake up. These oil prices are a smoke screen for those who are in power to enslave us.. They can already knock down your door ramsack your house and leave all without a warrant and no responcibility at all. You pay for the mess. Scareing us..fear.. teaching us to hate.. teaching us to spy on our nieghbor they may be the boogie man.. And we bend over and take it Thier is only one way to head whats coming off before it is too late.. Term limits.. Freshman in congress are gung hoe untill they have a talking to and become part of the good ole boys club. Congress was never met to be career. If we had term limits then we would not have good ole boys clubs..We would have people in thier wanting to make a difference. That is probally's Barack's biggest assett to me. Inexperience.. He goes in with a clear headed and maybe just maybe will say---wait a minute this just does not sound right. He is a big threat to Washington because of this inexperience. Experience means you are part of the good ole boys club. I wonder who McCains running mate will be? Strange how easily he got the nomination at his age. We already know that the rich control the courts. Just look how many get off even when they are on tape committing the crime.. Then look at the poor. In Mo. a Public defender has 60 cases on thier desk at one time. How good of defence do you think they get? We the People.. Created Equal.... BS Bring the middle class down, the rich get richer and we become thier slaves as they pass more laws for that purpose claiming a Democracy.. So when you go to the grocery store or the gas station think.. WE THE PEOPLE..... Is that really true Thank you miles! Someone finally read, comprehended, and commented intelligently to the report! Rock on..... 
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And more!!
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The farmers are raking it in and i am glad they are as they are pumping money into the economy. Glad you think the farmers are raking it in...when their not raking it in.....what do you think it takes to run the tractors....???? GAS....what is the fertlizer made from...????? Everything is going up up up and up....everything runs on gas and it is passed until all consumers in every form or fashion....... |
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Edited by
Milesoftheusa
on
Mon 07/14/08 06:47 PM
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When 2 dollar corn is at the same price as 1960 farmers have to produce more to make a profit.
Yea gas cost more. I have uncles and cousins who are farmers in ILL. who produce between 150 to 200 bushels of corn an acre. That at 150 would be 300 at 2 dollars a bushel and now 1200 an acre. Now 900 dollars more an acre i believe gas prices mean little to them right now. They are racking it in and John Deere would not have a 18 month back log on 100 thousand dollar tractors a 1/4 million on combines.. The money is not coming from your congressman
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When 2 dollar corn is at the same price as 1960 farmers have to produce more to make a profit. Yea gas cost more. I have uncles and cousins who are farmers in ILL. who produce between 150 to 200 bushels of corn an acre. That at 150 would be 300 at 2 dollars a bushel and now 1200 an acre. Now 900 dollars more an acre i believe gas prices mean little to them right now. They are racking it in and John Deere would not have a 18 month back log on 100 thousand dollar tractors a 1/4 million on combines.. The money is not coming from your congressman |
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Edited by
Milesoftheusa
on
Mon 07/14/08 07:23 PM
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no what i am saying is ...
The farmer to survive the last 40 some years had to raise how much they produced to make any kind of profit. In the last 4 years the price of corn on thier still average production rate has went from $2 to $8 a bushel. Now they were squesing by at the 2 dollars a bushel and making a living barely. Give them 900 dollars a bushel more an acre now and they are making some real cash. The Diesel price means little per acre. Let take i thought my uncle was crazy 3 years ago paying what he did for 400 acres of nothing but farmland (tillable) At what he was getting 4 years ago for corn off that same land in gross figures, not counting expences Then 120 thousand gross off of 400 acres Today 480 thousand gross now 360 thousand dollar difference in what that plot of land grossed. Way out wieghs his expences |
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It's not just oil that investors are buying because of future speculation prices, it is also commodities.
Commodity-index funds control a record 4.51 billion bushels of corn, wheat and soybeans through Chicago Board of Trade futures, equal to half the amount held in U.S. silos on March 1. The holdings jumped 29 percent in the past year as investors bought grain contracts seeking better returns than stocks or bonds. The buying sent crop prices and volatility to records and boosted the cost for growers and processors to manage risk. It's the best of times for somebody speculating on grain prices, but it's not the best of times for farmers,'' said Niemeyer, 59. ``The demand for futures exceeds the demand for cash grains.'' http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html |
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Edited by
Milesoftheusa
on
Mon 07/14/08 07:40 PM
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U r right Sexysweetie.
You and me can speculate on that also. I am 2 chicken Expect it to go high this month as they get the real figures of corn lost from the flooding |
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Some corn floats...I can prove it! not gonna finish this statement but, you know I ain't lying.
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ignoring that last statement. Try taking the whole god and Jesus hate democrats to the religion forums please. On my part.... Ok...it was a rub...but why ask such a question in the first place? Certain questions deserve certain answers... I wasn't being serious...just responding silly to a silly question is all. 
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Here is something to think about.... Democrats say they are for drilling, but argue that oil companies aren't going after the oil where they already have leases. So why open new, protected areas? they ask. Democrats say there are 68 million acres of federal land and waters where oil and gas companies hold leases, but aren't producing oil. "Democrats support more drilling," he said. "In fact, what the president hasn't told you is that the oil companies are already sitting on 68 million acres of federal lands with the potential to nearly double U.S. oil production. That is why in the coming days congressional Democrats will vote on 'Use It or Lose It' legislation requiring the big oil companies to develop these resources or lose their leases to someone else who will." Got to it before I did but this is true. There is a confusion on why we do not use our own resources. I think one person touched on the fact that if we utilize others resources until they do not have them anymore then we will be holding all the cards. It is not the democrats or libs who are preventing this from happening it is the big oil companies who have "contracts or interest" in foreign oil who are hedging these facts and our illustrious president has lots of "interest" in Saudi and such. So I would think and read before I blame dems or libs for these problems. There is nothing wrong with protecting what is left of our wild country or animals. It will be soon enough that they are extinct and the land is populated. Yeah...even if it means bankrupting the country in the process??? I don't think so... Well there goes your theories of blaming Bush & haliburton when there are MANY reasons holding up the technological advancements .... Oil Oil Oil!!!! If Bush is pushing it, that means our coastlines are safe. He has a brown thumb when it comes to political issues these days. And I actually think McBush and McSame both have such guilty conscience that they subconsciencely want to lose. i don't think all those rich republicans in Florida would be happy if they did start drilling there. ...and I can't wait for the rich limosine libs have to send their illegal slave workers out to the country side to shop. You seem to think it's only REPS that are rich. Rockefeller REPS & Limosine LIBS (DEMS).... they are all the same. Maybe when some here get THAT they will have more credibility... YU think? Nope, they are not the same. Pay close attention to this....Would Jesus be a Republican or Democrat? http://www.right-wing-pseudo-christians.com/jesus-democrat-republican.htm Jesus would be a republican because libs don't like to deal with their SINS... REPS OTOH, are more repentant. The truth be told it won't matter who gets elected... God is going to turn this world on it's spoiled brat head. If anything...Jesus will bring true justice to the nations. My O My...what will YOU be doing? I am not religious at all. But it is true that the Republican party are lost and the neo-cons have ran your party and our country to hell. I don't know if you follow your party faithfully, it would be presumptiuos of me to think so. But I do have the sense of reality to not listen when McSame says it's all in our heads. I do realize their failed policies. We are in 11 trillion debt and growing. Trickle down economics didn't work. We were led into an illegal war based on lies and exaggerations. Bush has took the law in his own hand and took away our rights. He has disgraced America. I really don't get how anyone could continue to agree with this and call themselves a republican. One would have to be a blind follower. Well that's not true at all. I am true to myself & what I believe in... I can cross party lines on certain issues but I do not believe in social "engineering" forcing people to believe things they don't. I agree but I feel that way about DEMS. I don't think either candidate deserve the postion. Some here will vote for a person simply becuase he's a DEM or a black man. I don't think that qualifies anyone to hold that position. I would not vote for someone simply because He's a POW either. If you want blind faith just look at those who voted for sick willie just because he was good looking. Now there's a joke vote if I ever heard one. Don't go pointing fingers. There's plenty pointing back. I vote my values... I vote for the most ETHICAL person running. I say our choices are scarey ones. |
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