Whats your opinion - is it:

1. Meant to be entirely figurative, so that every thing that occurs in
it must be interpreted? [ex: the '10 headed beast' would represent some
concept to be understood at the right time, as many suggest the EU would
have been]

2. Meant to be literalist. So that every thing that is written will
ACTUALLY occur as it is written. As such, the 'beast' is really a beast,
and is really slayed. The 7 scrolls are real, and the events that happen
will be literally as written.

3. Poetic reference to events that long since happened. Luther, and
other scholars argued that Revelation already passed, and that John was
writing about the things that were currently occuring in his day [95AD
island of Patmos, and compare that with the repeated writings in John 3
'...the beast already walks the earth']

I personally agree with #3. But, I'm interested to hear what everyone
else thinks.

Intelligently, it has to be figurative.

There are two parts to deciphering John's writings - the future events
he saw, and the sights in Heaven he witnessed.

For the future events, we know today that these events occur in the far
future from when he lived - if it all happened tomorrow, we're looking
at around two thousand years. There is simply no way that he could
describe what he witnessed, even with full comprehension of the events,
in terms we could understand today. Since we don't have an accurate
description, we must take the events as described in a figurative sense.

As for the sights in Heaven ... well, it's Heaven. I doubt anyone could
fully comprehend the glory of God when it's presented to him face to
face. So we have to take a figurative stance on his descriptions of
Heaven as well.

The book of Danial goes with Revelations. Suggestion buy the NIV Bible
on CD and when you study a book listen to the CD and follow along in
your bible it makes much more sence when studying Rev. also study
Danial.

i agee with # 4

I say for the most part fig. and porttions were meant to be literally.
If you review history there have been many things in rev. that appear to
have already happened and in the present there are portions that appear
to be happening now

I think it's figurative (in parable form) much like most of the Bible is
with regard to prophecy. I believe that some of the things in Revelation
have happened, some of the things are happening and some of the things
have yet to happen, with the last events culminating with the "end" of
humankind as we know it.

Well he had to be writing about the Rome of his day along with some
verry wishfull thinking on his part as well as every other Christian
living in that era.

I think that it is all number 5. I have done alot of deep study on this
subject. Rev also, besides Danial, ties in with Ezikiel, and Isaiah.

It is figertive in that John explained things in terms he understood.
But the mystery is the literal interpretation of these visions. You have
to know the old testament and the Torah/law like the back of your hand
to understand them. If you want to learn then study to show your self
approved and the Holy Spirit will teach you all things. I have yet to
meet a christian minister that knows didly about the bible. They are
taught in thier simeneries mostly about finance and how to run a
business. They are the same ones who in John chapters 2 and 3 The
Messiah spoke of as the scribes and Pharasees were the keepers of the
temple. No selling was to be done in the House of Prayer only offerings.
Take a good look at your own faith and see if you really have been
taught anything. Its prophesied by peter as "itchy ears" meaning they
say what they believe the people want to hear to keep thier jobs. Go
back to the beginning of the book and see if the priests were voted on
every few years by thier people to see if they kept thier jobs. Then
read the last chapter of Malachi closely and you will see whats comming.

Interesting 'quiz' Mike!

I'll take your 'pick' on that one:
'number 3', as long as you allow me to add...

'parables, carrying moral lessons' and,
'allorical' allowing for meditation, appropriation and application of
the moral lessons in our lives today,

... to your original poetic! (and I have nothing against poetry by the
way!)

I'll stick to the 'quiz' for now, but I'm curious to find out from you
Mike, does that make you an 'Origen' fan???


P.S.: 'netuserlla', the quiz had 3 choices!!! Could you just pick
between 1, 2, or 3 please??? Thanks.

TYPO!!! SORRY!!!

In second paragraph, please exchange "...'allorical' ..." for
'ALLEGORICAL' .

Thanks

I have to pick "none of the above". For me there is only one thing
this chapter has to offer to the codex itself. The mystery surrounding
why it was ever chosen in the first place to be included with other
scriptures.
The intent of gathering all the scriptures together in one codex, one
book, was to show continuity. It's purpose was to inter-relate those
stories that had surpassed culture, language and time in a manner that
would leave little doubt in the readers mind that this must be the
infalible word of God. If it is not how could these writings, from many
different aspects and writers, possibly have survived so long and still
maintain such fluency. However, this chapter contains almost none of
that continuity or flow that was meant to be present in the book as a
whole.
A break down of the writing form and language actually indcates that
it was written by some unknown author and seems to have no relation, on
the same level, as described above, as the other writings in the Bible.
It is a mystery that poeple have attempted to solve for generations.
Once again, I must ask those who believe in the "inspired nature" of the
Bible, why would anything God feels is important enough to say to us, be
so cryptic in nature? If our brains were not meant to function on the
level of questioning such things, then how/why do we? Otherwise, if we
were meant to question, why would we not easily be able to find the
answers. Why would a God "test" it's creations that are so loved as to
be sent an offering of a God in the flesh to be sacrificed to save us
from our own will?
To me the book of Revelations is the biggest of those errors in
judgement that can only be made or attributed to man - and not through
some inspired trickle down effect of God, which of couse brings the
entire book and all it's writings into question.

Hi Redykeulous,

How was the pool lesson?

On this topic, couldn't we settle for a #3 (with fried rice!)?

I mean, you appear to be arguing for very poor 'POETIC, or very poor
ALLEGORICAL Parable form?!?!? :)

Voil, I spent years mystified by the nature of the book of revelations.
With each new theory I read, thought there might be an answer there.
There was an interesting theory, that even attempted to fit all the
"activities" of this book, into a true historical look of events past.
Those events being what occured at some point when the apostles were
teaching their new faith.

It was quite interesting and had some extremely good logic, however, in
the end it was just a theory, somewhat like those thories that people
present today as their link to "prove" that Nostrodamos was a seerer or
profit, or even like those who are currently involved in "the Bible
code", and how they also link their 'theories' to events as proof that
the code works.

What my mission has been for many years, has been, is to find a way,
maybe even to develop a system of belief for those who do not find peace
within any set of rigid organized religious beliefs. I present here
one of those ideas, that I came accross almost 30 years ago, that were
so like my own that the creator of these words became a new study for
me. Below is the basic info that I speak of. This is not to be viewed
as WHAT I believe, it was just a path that was so near my own and so
different from others beliefs that I had to persue who this person was.
He is quite an interesting study.

To see more click on:

http://www.near-death.com/experiences/cayce10.html

During several of Cayce's journeys into the spirit realms, he was able
to unlock the secrets to the symbolism in the Book of Revelation. He
gave a large amount of information specifically for the purpose of
discovering the book's hidden meaning.

Cayce described the true nature between humanity and God. Cayce revealed
that humans actually have three different dimensions of human awareness:
the conscious mind (personality, the subconscious mind (soul) and the
superconscious mind (spirit). An important goal in everyone's life is to
awaken our superconscious mind to attain what Cayce called at-one-ment
with God.

The superconscious mind is called by many names by many religions in
many different cultures. Some of these names are: Buddha consciousness,
Christ consciousness, the Collective Mind, the Universal Mind, the
Collective Unconsciousness, the Holy Spirit, Brahman, God, the Clear
White Light, Allah, Higher Self, the Mind of Christ, etc.

Cayce's references to the Christ, the Christ consciousness and the Mind
of Christ has little to do with the personality known as Jesus. Cayce
revealed that Jesus became the Christ - a full manifestation of the
Christ consciousness - the perfect union of the human with the divine.
It is God's desire for all of humanity to become Christs (or Buddhas if
you live in the East). Such a condition will truly bring the Kingdom of
God to the earth. Cayce revealed that the Book of Revelation is the
symbolic story of how humanity in general (and a human in particular)
attains this manifestation of the divine.

Voil, have I fallen back on track, or still riding the rail?

'... Voil, have I fallen back on track, or still riding the rail?'

Hum!

I'd suggest moving your 'enriched' reply to a number 1 vs a 3, simply by
adding that you resort to psychics (outside of church 'questionnable'
interpreters) for interpretations of Church Dogma (just as
questionnable)!

If you allow the statement I have made above, I would say that following
an impressive acrobatic number, it would appear to me that you have
landed on your feet! Otherwise, I would settle for your other
suggestion: still riding the (Holy Gr...') '...rail! :)

Simply put IMO, if we can agree that Psychics are something other than
what they claim: denoting some form of mental phenomena that are
apparently inexplicable by known natural laws, since they seem to
transcend the confines of the brain!!!
If we could agree that 'psychics' are nothing other 'mystical'
strory-tellers: create real-time myths around some of the sclerosing
questions most people keep asking themselves: 'who are we, where do we
come from, what's our purpose in life???, then we would have something.

Their imposture in my mind is to pretend to some exclusive (outside of
most selves except themselves) 'connection' with 'some' outside source
(outside the reach of 'self' in the largest sense)! Giving 'them' some
form of authority to reveal 'THE TRUTH'! They often refer to their
messages from 'wherever' as 'REVELATIONS'!!!

I find that preposterous! I don't attack any convictions you might have
on the subject 'Redykeulous', I just base my own views on this subject,
in the context of the possible perverse exploitation of humans limited
awareness of his own condition.

Here's what I mean:

It could be said that the greatest blessing of human beings (what
distinguishes him from other primates) is his PARTIAL 'SELF-awareness'.
On the other hand, given the fact that HUMANS have a very limited
awaress of 'self' (or at least that humans have shown very little
mastery of its whole), this 'awareness' could also be argued to be
humans biggest CURSE!

Is it awareness, or is it an illusion of awareness? The little
awareness we might have, seems to come with the pretention of 'total
awareness for some, or the possibitlity of attaining total awareness
within a life time. That's the curse: keeps us from being whole!!!

The latest findings on the nature of the primitive brain (renamed
'emotional' brain and ensuing EQ of past 2-3 decades), and the
neo-cortex, sheds some very interesting light on the matter.

It has been clearly established that the primitive brain, controlling
all body functions and home of all emotions, has no connections
whatsoever with the neo-cortex (thinking and languaging: awareness), NO
WIRING.

It could be said that all that goes on, is that the 'aware' part of us:
neo-cortex, observes the disconnected, mysterious, subconscious, and
intemporal 'other' part of our 'self', without ever being able to access
or control it: the mind over matter principle.

So this awareness of mystery:
... awareness of some signals, which our very own primitive brain keeps
emitting(instinctive flight or fight, imbalance of substance (sickness),
or emotions of all sort) , but that the neo-cortex can only identify as
a disconnected from us, or outside from us!!! (The P.M. owns no inside
connections with the neo-cortex. The neo-cortex observes and places as
outside of itself, all messages from the P.M. Thus all forms of
illguided 'holy grail' pursuits putiing the divine truly outside of us)

Oneness, it could be said, has nothing to do with being one with an
'outside divine entity' or seeking for something 'missing'!!!

This is a pure fabrication of the neo-cortex, and simply expresses its
disconnection (incapable of controlling) the primitive or emotional
brain. It brings us back to the evolution and creationism post: no
connection between faith and science. The rational cannot explain the
mysterious!!!

While our neo-cortex, by nature, experiences the mysterious, divine,
sacred, intemporal, immaterial, lodged in the primitive brain, as
separate from IT, it goes further than just experiencing it, it tries
desparately (that is it's only nature) to explain it. To be available
to 'oneness' is probably more than anything, refraining from falling
for that superstition: the mysterious, etc., isn't in fact separate
from us at all, as the rational side of our brain insists. And thus the
human paradox.

From this perspective, ONENESS becomes an individual journey that has
everything to do with 'interrupting' the illusion or lie of separation
from the neo-cortex, and thus allowing our 'whole self' to be with the
mystery for what it is, A MYSTERY!!! A question which REQUIRES NO
ANSWER!!!

When some pretend to turn the Mysterious, sacred or divine into some
banal 'thing' that must be understood, or 'revealed' from any form of
outside source, we are all losing any true sense of 'existence' as
whole, and replacing it with a senseless egocentric pursuit, that must
be accomplished within one's 'separate' lifetime!!!

Allow the reality of the organic and natural disconnect between the
'mystical' and the 'rational'. Honor the paradox that they come
together in us, as one, ONLY when one respects that they are in fact
disconnected!!!

So, NUMBER 1, or NUMBER 3 ????

I don't care if it is prophesy or fable or whatever you want to call it.

I just hope it doesn't happen for anothe 1000 years or so.

If we bring the world to a peacfull state we can put off the end times
long enough to learn something.

Rather go to heaven as a sucsessfull graduate of life than a child
kicking and screaming.

AdventureBegins,

".. I don't care if it is prophesy or fable or whatever you want to call
it.
If we bring the world to a peacfull state we can put off the end times
long enough to learn something."

Given your wish for world peace, I'd suggest you pick #3!!!

On #1, people from all different religions will keep creating Gurus to
get a version of the truth, on their respective religion. That's a lot
versions of thruts to reconcialiate. I don't see peace through that.

On #2, people from all different religions, will keep using the litteral
word in 'their' respective 'truth book', and impose it on others. Sounds
like a perfect formula for War, not peace!

On #3, it's an individual journey. Everyone gets to carve his own
journey. The myths, stories, parables or scriptures, from one, or from
multiple religions, or other spiritual sources, are not the truth. They
are inspiratinal sources, to help guide and register individuals on the
ethical plane of living together on this planet! Sounds like possible
peace to me!

Do you agree with #3 'AdventureBegins' ?!?!?

I get my inspiration from the glory of god.

#3 is good but I have never read that book much past genesis.

So I am sometimes left wondering what all the hoopla is about.

I see gods glory in all things. A sunset, a sunrise, a mother holding
her child, a father teaching his son to fish, the peace of an early dawn
upon the awakening world. What more do I need.

You're a true #3 'AdventureBegins'.

You don't need a book, a religion, or a preacher.

All of life's poetry inspires you, and reminds you that you don't own
it, but are blessed to be part of it all.

Nothing more, nothing less!!!


Here's to you #3!!!