if each is born and see the SAME environment, then each speak of the part of the ENVIRONEMNT they see, as WHAT else is there that give NEED for the brain to work......the brain work by positive and negative charge......the charges are the SAME for all, so it is the MEANING that will be NEW, if one see MORE than seen before......perhaps you have not read much of what i have posted, as all is meaning NEVER heard before, but then u would have a hard time believing that, lol......my words are the meaning of all things spoken BEFORE, but filtered without FEAR......this I know for ME, and is not an assumption of anything more than JUST that, nothing more and nothing less.....

your questions though lead to many truths that when answered give each SECOND a BIGGER or GREATER or MORE ADVANCED WITH TIME answers.......

great points man, lol.......jmo

I think you have me confused with someone else.

I don't have any "religious beliefs" and if I did, it would not "forbid" me to do anything.

So you can give up with your silly game of asking me to "prove" something.

As I have said before this is not about "rational" and it is not about "independent thought."

Will is about the power of self direction. End of story.
If you want to talk to me you will need to get on my page because I have no intention of getting on yours.

well then "JennieBean" if "Will" is the power of self-direction then why can't you self-direct yourself to form your own rational independent thoughts

"Davidben1" in his last post somewhat explained why it couldn't be done ..

Well then funches if you don't believe it can be done then why ask me to do it?

(What you are asking me to do actually has nothing to do with the power of self direction. It has to do with a challenge to think an original thought that in your opinion is "rational.")

As for Davidben1's post, it makes no sense to me, just like your posts make no sense.

We are not on the same page and I can't even fathom to guess where your page is. It is probably in a different book altogether.

If you are asking me to do something you believe can't be done, then I have no desire to prove anything to you because proof is a matter of what you are able to believe.

Perhaps you believe that all "rational thought" (as you describe it, has already been thunk.

But none of this has anything to do with the will being the power of self direction, so you just don't get it.

Oh well.

JB

truly I have never once read that God controls everything.... yes you have free will.. yes God has a purpose for your life.. you have the choice or free will to follow God or not

To follow God or not is not the only choice involved with the idea of "free will." (You make it sound like there are only two choices.)

The will is not about picking and choosing from a list of choices you are offered.

It is about being the director of your life. It is having the power to decide, not the decision itself. At least that is my perception of what the will is.

Apparently most people disagree. That's okay, I am finished with this topic now.

JB

because you insist that you had "Free Will" of self direction but yet can't self direct yourself to form your own rational thoughts ...it's a total contradiction on your part

indeed all you say i believe, however it does state in the same book of god we speak of that "NO MAN CAN RESIST THE WILL OF GOD"......just fyi......seems like the truth has to be some of what each believe with EACH dropping off all the things they believe due to FEAR interpreting the meaning......

as if to say mankind MOST define WRONG by what each FEAR.....

to perpetuate the misery of mankind.

JB.....i secretly admire each post you type, as SO many of your ideas are one that one CANNOT have unless they have PASSED thru much FEAR, however it seem that the root of what funches is trying to get at is one that is hard to sharpen to a fine point, but if one look to childhood, and see that EACH is born into a FEAR realm, WITHOUT COGNATIVE PRESENT CHOICE, then one begins REACTING from environment NOT ASKED FOR, by all PURE means available, but STILL having to FIGHT AS A PRISONER a silent but DEADLY forcefield of ENERGY......this is CERTAINALLY the THE ROOT negative of EACH THIGN BORN.......what is born into POSITIVE ALONE......NOTHING......i hope this post is more directly meaningful to the discussion at hand, lol......this is a FINE POINT TO SHARPEN, SO AN IMMEDIATE MEETING OF THE MINDS CAN "NEVER" BE EXPECTED, LOL.......it is as if the purpose is never to win a point, as if one is always LEARNING by each thing they hear, then the truth is EVER GROWING.......EVER CHANGING.....ABSORBING ALL DATA AND REDUCING IT TO THE SIMPLISTIC YES OR NO ONE ASKED ONESELF OF ALL THINGS THRU TOTAL 100% LOGIC THAT SEES ALL THINGS WITH EQUAL WEIGHT......JMO

funches......already said your thought train is dynamic man, and leads me to many more truths, the ones you know ypou know but do not become REAL until spoken blindly, and then they are even CONFIRMED as spoken as FEAR of saying is removed when speaking with no care of whether one is wrong or right, but rather always looking for MORE LOGIC......

mankind make his list of wrongs MOST by what EACH FEAR, which with 6 1/2 billion, is a sure remedy for disator....

it is too often the way of mankind to not see PRIDE is only FEAR of being wrong, which is when seen thru WHOLE and not PARTIAL logic the same as to say......each being is SO right that to be wrong is AGAINST the nature, so each being "help the other to MOST easily admit with FACE and DIGNITY when they have not seen ALL that is possible, lol......like really, who see all the universe in ONE look, or in ONE sentence or paragraph, or even in ONE book, or even in ONE library of books, lol...jmo

works with kids like a magic genie, lol.....

god's ultimate plan for us is to realize that he has no plan for us - most just have not seen it yet, as a species, the absurdness of this goal or ideal you call belief or faith will amount to nothing - god does not need man - man needs god - otherwise - man feel's incapable of understanding his purpose, and that's the big lie - "man does not have some ultimate purpose, man is but a spec of sub-microscopic dust living on a spec of larger dust in an infinite universe.



you will never know god in a personal way - nor will god know you in that way either.

and that's why with 6 1/2 billion people is why one can not expect to have true self-direction without infringing on someone's else's true self-direction or fears and why laws exist to control one's self direction

"Will" is the ability to turn thought into action but those actions will have consequences and/or fear and that's why "Free Will" is the ability to turn thought into actions without any consequences or fear ..

because how can someone claim they have self direction if they have no choice but to follow the laws of society the laws or a god if they believe and/or the laws of nature

Free from what????

The Revolutionary War set the U.S. free from the reign of England.

The Civil War set the slaves free from their captors.

Christianity claims it sets one free from the sins of past, and the horror of eternity in hell.

When I placed a small gecko which was inside my living room upon my finger yesterday, I walked it outside and placed it upon the vegetation outside. It was then free from my temporary capture.

What is the will free from?

I think you are confusing the free will of a criminal to free will of a law abiding citizen. One can be free and choose outside of the crowd without infringing upon the rights of others, right?

Creative, good to see you Are we talking of the religious definition of free will or the non religious definition because there is a difference.

Religious free will is the natural will we have to sin. It is the defiance we have to god's rule. Or at least that is the definition I recieved from my religious teachings.

Non religious free will is the choices we make daily. It is our free will to follow the crowd, it is our free will to eat unhealthy, it is our free will to watch horror shows even though we get nightmares, etc.... Free, devoid of constraints and will the knowledge, thought, plan to take an action.

Hiya Dragoness!



This free will thing has never held water...

One cannot know everything... One cannot choose everything...

To choose better, one must at least know of better.

Will is dependent, not free.

Okay then, free will within the human constraints of being, is that better?

Exactly.

(I simply call it "Will.")

Will is just Will. It has never been in bondage to anything and it can never be in bondage to anything.

If the term "free will" originated from religious ideas (as Davidben1 suggested) perhaps they (religions) have attempted to weaken the will of mankind to the point that they believed they had no will of their own or that the will was in bondage and must be given freedom. (by some God of course.)

But the will is just the will.

JB

Peace...

Live... Learn... Laugh... Love...

Conditioned responses exist...

Free will does not...

Will is the ability to consciously make a personal decision of choice, most would agree perhaps?


BUT...



The subconscious elements are always left out of the equation, for some reason...

Those subconscious factors(internalizations) play a much larger role in the perceptual faculty's ability to subconsciously recognize available choice(s), before it is ever translated into a conscious thought or decision.

In other words, individual perception must be able to recognize the fact that there is more than one choice available in order to have the freedom to choose as they wish between the available recognized options. Even then most will agree that on many an occasion, they had no other choice.

Only because other choices were not recognized.

JB, I have a fantastic story dealing with your Experiments with the Law of Attraction thread...

Couldja bring it back up?

Sure. Be my guest. It is buried in here somewhere.

JB