that's how I usually define it, a refined pyramid scheme. This charity is a legitimately government registered charity though, which is the really bad part.

it sounds good, and in that instance it would be a great idea, however I'm skeptical of for profit charities after working for one that bordered on a scam, working for "Pediatric AIDS Canada".

Basically what happened is this, we would go door to door asking for donations, got dressed up in suits and practiced our pitches for hours before going out.) Long story short, if I got, say, a 10 dollar a month donation, I would get a 25 dollar commission and at least two other people would get the same. I never knew the inner workings of the pay system, but I did know from what I was told that at least 2 other people would get that. So, assuming they gave for a year, the kids would get less than half of that money. if they gave for more than a year that number improves vastly but it was still pretty sketchy.

I think I can agree to that.

I was not trying to say that these things are right because I believe them to be so. What I was trying to say is that while these are things that a lot of non believers feel strongly about, they are more political issues than religious issues, and thus are different from debating the semantics or accuracy of the bible.

That's not fair, I never said that.

I'm going to get this out of my system and then try to stay out of religious discussion on this website because I've wasted too much of my life on the subject. So I'm just gonna write everything down at once and hope it comes off as somewhat coherent.

Before I start I would just like to say that there are certain issues that are, and should be, important to non believers. (though I am Canadian, some of these American issues I do watch with interest) Things like keeping the separation of church and state, defeating the revisionist history bill House Resolution 888, making sure abortion is available for all who choose it, Stem Cell research should continue without government intervention and pressure from the religious right and keeping intelligent design out of science class and put it in religion class, which I'm not opposed to, where it belongs. In fact, I'm sure a lot of these things are important issues to some Christians too. My dad, a Christian, agrees with me on all the above issues. Thus, while these are important to non believers, I feel they are more political issues than anything else. What I am talking about here refers to debating the specifics of the bible, whether or not there's a god etc.

I am someone who doesn't believe in god. I went from a Christian to an atheist (please note that while i refer to myself as an atheist in this post, I'm liking the term less and less as I find it counter productive to identify myself with a negative.) It didn't happen from reading Richard Dawkins, Sam Harris or Christopher Hitchens, it was a gradual, personal thing that just sort of happened as the result of personal reflection and research. However despite this I became very involved in religious debate on several forums, youtube, that sort of thing. After doing this for a time longer than I'd like to state, I've come to the conclusion it was all a waste of time.

Here's why, first of all, when I was a Christian, there was no one, I repeat, NO ONE, that could have convinced me there was no god, something I had forgotten when I had been caught up in these debates. As I stated before me and me alone caused me to leave Christianity. I never read any atheist book or looked into typical atheist rhetoric until years after I stopped believing, perhaps the fact I am fairly young plays a part in that but nonetheless, atheist rhetoric was something I started reading about years after I became an atheist. I believed in all the miracles of the bible and that Jesus died for my sins and all that stuff.

The other side, of course, is that my atheism was also not a conscious choice. I actually tried to regain my faith when I realized I didn't believe any more. I couldn't do it. While I have accepted my non belief, no argument could possibly get me to convert to any religion even if I wanted to. I would be asking too many questions and as soon as it involved the supernatural, I just wouldn't be able to believe in it.

generally what I've found is that every religious debate eventually deteriorates to the same issues, same arguments, same topics, dead horses are beaten, everyone leaves a little pissed off and nothing is resolved.

Don't get me wrong, religious fundamentalists scare the hell out of me, but debating them is absolutely pointless as they will not budge on their position. Living around non fundi Christians all my life has made me feel that so what if the believe in god, other than that one issue that I find weird they're perfectly normal people, and never mention religion if they know no one else wants to talk about it. And religious fundamentalists scare the hell out of a lot of them to. And even if I wanted to debate them, I wouldn't be able to change their minds either as their faith is pretty strong too. If you believe the polls, religion is in decline around the world anyway, except of course in backward places like Saudi Arabia.

so ya, I think I've said all I want to say.

I see what you're saying, what I refer to as creationists in my post are anti evolutionists, people who try, and fail, to poke holes into one of the strongest scientific theories there is. so people like Answers In Genesis or the Discovery Institute. But I also think that creationism, in all forms, should stay out of science class and stay in religion class. Evolution and the origin of life are two completely different topics.

I joined this site a few months ago but was never involved in the forums or anything like that so I'm saying hello now.

hello.

I just don't understand the religious right's opposition to evolution, I just can't. While I have no religion (I used to call myself an atheist but now think that putting a label on a negative is counter productive), my dad is a Christian and he thinks all the anti evolution people are nuts. Most Christians I have met have no problem what so ever with evolution. "Intelligent design" is made up of false claims and very bad attacks on evolution. there is no use talking to creationists, don't bother. no matter what you tell them they'll plug their ears and go "how did the eye just form itself" which is something no biology scientist claims or "what about these hoaxes" that were exposed by scientists, not creationists, and ignoring the tons of other fossils that were not hoaxes.

if there's one thing I've learned about creationists it's that you shouldn't bother talking to them. The best thing to do is make sure they keep their intelligent design "theory" (it's not a theory, it's at best a hypothesis and at worst made up crap. it's not falsifiable and makes no observations or predictions) out of science class and keep it in religion class where it belongs.

a brief history of time.