Topic: The World Can't Say It Didn't Know
Let'sDoThis's photo
Thu 12/05/19 04:33 PM
Edited by Let'sDoThis on Thu 12/05/19 04:36 PM
https://www.frcaction.org/get.cfm?i=WA19L11&f=WU19L03
Tuesday, the House, in almost complete unanimity, sent a powerful message to China that America will not stand idly by while the regime brutalizes and exterminates its own people. By a 407-1 vote, both parties stood in solidarity with the millions of Uyghurs and other religious minorities forced to walk China's blood-soaked trail of genocide. Under the act, the monsters responsible for these camps would be sanctioned and new bans on the sale of U.S.-made goods to state agents would inflict fresh pain on the country's economy.

Blaze's photo
Fri 12/06/19 01:49 AM
Edited by Blaze on Fri 12/06/19 02:26 AM
Can you show us the sources about "extermination of Uyghurs"? There has been 1,000 deaths in Xinjiang since the insurgency. As far as I've researched Uyghur terrorists killed 169 people from 2017 to 2019 and Turkestan Islamic party has been designated as islamic terrorist organisation since 2007 when it carried several terrorist attacks inside china and it has support from alqaeda and taliban. In kashmir, 35,000 people have been killed since insurgency by the government. Those were all terrorists. Would you call this a genocide? Moreover, genocide involves ethnic cleansing and mass murder by definition. Only 1000 people have been killed so far since a decade of insurgency in xinjiang. That is not even close to genocide or extermination.
I know what terrorism from Afghanistan and Pakistan looks like in my country. China has not killed jihadists like my country does, rather china has made a different lenient approach to counter jihadists. China puts them in "reeducation" camps so that the uyghurs can not be prone to Islamic extremism. Not all Uyghurs are terrorists. China is saving it soil.


Sources- https://www.eastwestcenter.org/system/tdf/private/PS006.pdf?file=1&type=node&id=32006

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xinjiang_conflict



no photo
Fri 12/06/19 02:49 AM
I've been following these reports claiming that China is exterminating the Uyghurs and in my judgement, they have no credibility at all.

Ladywind7's photo
Fri 12/06/19 04:29 AM

I've been following these reports claiming that China is exterminating the Uyghurs and in my judgement, they have no credibility at all.


Explain please?

no photo
Fri 12/06/19 04:36 AM
Simply stated, if the allegations of torture, executions and rapes were true, no one would be released alive from these camps and certainly not allowed out of the country to testify in front of the U.S. Congress.

IgorFrankensteen's photo
Fri 12/06/19 05:19 AM

Simply stated, if the allegations of torture, executions and rapes were true, no one would be released alive from these camps and certainly not allowed out of the country to testify in front of the U.S. Congress.


Unfortunately, that reasoning boils down to "if your repression and mass murder is thorough enough, I'll pretend it isn't happening."

Just from a logical reasoning point of view, it's not a valid way to decide such things.

Especially since there have been cases in the planet's past of this kind of thing going on.

no photo
Fri 12/06/19 05:47 AM


Simply stated, if the allegations of torture, executions and rapes were true, no one would be released alive from these camps and certainly not allowed out of the country to testify in front of the U.S. Congress.


Unfortunately, that reasoning boils down to "if your repression and mass murder is thorough enough, I'll pretend it isn't happening."

Just from a logical reasoning point of view, it's not a valid way to decide such things.

Especially since there have been cases in the planet's past of this kind of thing going on.

I don't accept your inference that this is my attitude or that I would pretend that it wasn't happening if the evidence were there. This is not my reasoning but I stand by my statement nevertheless.

Let'sDoThis's photo
Fri 12/06/19 06:45 AM
The link to the story is in the original post.
We can offer our opinions. However, MSM only offers part of the story. Usually, leaning left.

no photo
Fri 12/06/19 08:00 AM
Edited by Seamus on Fri 12/06/19 08:09 AM
Quite so, people are indeed entitled to their opinions and these might differ from mine. Actually, a full explanation of the reasons for my opinion as requested by Ladywind7 would have been both long and tedious. Instead I opted for Sardony or biting humour instead of an analysis that would have taken several days to prepare and present.

no photo
Fri 12/06/19 09:04 AM
millions of Uyghurs and other religious minorities forced to walk China's blood-soaked trail of genocide.

I don't know about genocide, unless you're talking about cultural, intellectual, and freedom genocide...

http://apnews.com/4ab0b341a4ec4e648423f2ec47ea5c47
http://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b

no photo
Fri 12/06/19 10:05 AM

millions of Uyghurs and other religious minorities forced to walk China's blood-soaked trail of genocide.

I don't know about genocide, unless you're talking about cultural, intellectual, and freedom genocide...

http://apnews.com/4ab0b341a4ec4e648423f2ec47ea5c47
http://apnews.com/6e151296fb194f85ba69a8babd972e4b

Did anyone here doubt the harshness and brutality of the Chinese State?

no photo
Mon 12/09/19 10:38 AM
Edited by Seamus on Mon 12/09/19 10:54 AM


I've been following these reports claiming that China is exterminating the Uyghurs and in my judgement, they have no credibility at all.


Explain please?

I'll do my best. Let's establish first that Internment camps are a bad idea that comes around again with an unfortunate frequency. All the historical and recent uses of internment camps have a number of features in common. They come about in times of external war or internal terrorism, the subjects of internment (imprisonment without having commited any crime) all belong to a particular ethnic minority and no matter what is claimed otherwise, they have absolutely no basis in law and must always be considered both unjust and unlawful. They are essentially the same as prisons and suffer from the same problems. They are often counterproductive in as much as the interned are often brutalised and therefore all the more determined to fight the interning authorities because of the injustice they have experienced.

no photo
Tue 12/10/19 03:53 AM
But to return to the question as to why I don't believe that the Chinese authorities are exterminating the Uyghurs.

The Chinese actually have an excellent record on protecting their minorities. There are approximately fifty-five non-Han minorities in China that have existed under Chinese rule for at least two thousand years and still have their own language and way of life etc. The largest of these minorities are the Lolo who live in Myanmar, Thailand and Yunnan and Sichuan in China. Despite over two thousand years of Han Chinese migration into Yunnan and Sichuan, the Han have not replaced them and the Lolo are still there with their own languages, customs and traditional dress. Admittedly, the Cultural Revolution was as hard on these people as it was the rest of China as the Communist Party tried to irradicate everything of the past. However, they survived this horror and continue to flourish even under Communism.



no photo
Tue 12/10/19 04:55 AM
Edited by Seamus on Tue 12/10/19 05:14 AM
Given their long history, the Chinese are used to dealing with invasions and attacks. Like most people, if possible, they will opt for peaceful means like intermarriage and assimilation to defuse any potential threat. Where this is not possible, they will certainly adopt more drastic measures to eliminate the threat. In the past, they have expelled invaders and raiders through force of arms. They have also, as ciretom rightly said, conducted what he called 'cultural genocide' by denying troublesome and persistent threats their own language and customs, usually by dispersing the people or tribe responsible for these attacks throughout China in small groups and educating them as Han. I am no apologist for things that happened long before I was born or that I am not responsible for but, as much as you might disapprove of these actions, they might be seen as less terrible than actual genocide, which as far as I'm aware, the Chinese have never actually committed.

So, it's not that the Chinese can't be ruthless when facing an existential threat, they can and have been but they also tend to be measured in their response and take whatever action seems necessary to ensure their own survival but rarely go beyond this strict necessity.
I don't think that there is any nation in the world that can claim greater experience or success in dealing peacefully with their ethnic minorities.

no photo
Tue 12/10/19 05:45 AM
These are some of the reasons that I regard claims of between 800,000 and 2,000,000 Uyghurs being locked up in extermination camps as exaggeration, outright lies and opportunistic denunciations by those who have no interest in the fate of the Uyghurs but find that any stick will do to beat a dog.
I've no doubt that these places are brutal or that people die in them and I feel nothing but sympathy for those innocents who are and will be caught up in them but they are not the intentional death camps that they are claimed to be.

Blaze's photo
Fri 12/13/19 12:16 AM

But to return to the question as to why I don't believe that the Chinese authorities are exterminating the Uyghurs.

The Chinese actually have an excellent record on protecting their minorities. There are approximately fifty-five non-Han minorities in China that have existed under Chinese rule for at least two thousand years and still have their own language and way of life etc. The largest of these minorities are the Lolo who live in Myanmar, Thailand and Yunnan and Sichuan in China. Despite over two thousand years of Han Chinese migration into Yunnan and Sichuan, the Han have not replaced them and the Lolo are still there with their own languages, customs and traditional dress. Admittedly, the Cultural Revolution was as hard on these people as it was the rest of China as the Communist Party tried to irradicate everything of the past. However, they survived this horror and continue to flourish even under Communism.



finally someone who understands from different perspective. I'm not chinese and i understand their history and culture. One needs to understand how PRC was formed and what happened in mainland china in last century to get the point. These so called death camps are fickle imagination of people who want to believe what they want without any evidence. When they're shown some evidence of "reeducation camps" and testimony of uyghurs living in Xinjiang, these people often claim that's fabricated. Well then each should believe what they want, testimony and evidences do not count then.